From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: Migrating our IPFire Forum to Discourse Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 00:24:03 +0000 Message-ID: <0FEDFC4F-B619-4800-8D4B-D899D79A2E1C@ipfire.org> In-Reply-To: <5b56b09fae6c05ad4193aae1b64a3507a2839bff.camel@ipfire.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0015471968851468571==" List-Id: --===============0015471968851468571== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > On 28 Oct 2019, at 22:21, ummeegge wrote: >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > On Mo, 2019-10-28 at 09:50 +0000, Michael Tremer wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> Thank you for your feedback :) > your welcome :-) . >=20 >>=20 >>> On 26 Oct 2019, at 05:33, ummeegge wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Michael, >>> great work and nice to see the new infrastructure is growing also >>> with >>> new tools for the community and to bring the whole new environment >>> closer to another. >>>=20 >>> Wanted to give some thoughts, ideas and questions in here. >>=20 >> Yes, the new infrastructure performs a lot better and we have spent >> so much time on it and built so much automation into it that we are >> now really saving a lot of time. > Great to hear! >=20 >>=20 >> But it is a thing that is never finished and so we will always update >> it and add new things :) > Business as usual :-) . >=20 >>=20 >>> On Do, 2019-10-24 at 10:36 +0100, Michael Tremer wrote: >>>> Hello guys, >>>>=20 >>>> All services that we have (Bugzilla, Patchwork, Wiki, etc.) are >>>> already connected to it. What was missing is the forum. >>>=20 >>> It might be an idea to line the other platforms out or set links to >>> them in the forum. Several bug reports but also reguests to >>> integrate >>> community development comes to the forum and needed to be >>> redirected to >>> the appropriate sections. >>>=20 >>>> What is going to happen next? >>>>=20 >>>> Since this milestone was taken now, we are ready to start our >>>> migration to Discourse. >>>=20 >>> Is there a ~date for this ? >>=20 >> Yes, I hope that we will be able to launch this next Monday, 4th Nov >> during our usual telephone conference. I will send invites for a >> little launch party :) > Sound is good :D >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>> The new forum is called =E2=80=9CIPFire Community=E2=80=9D, because I co= nsider >>>> the >>>> word forum to be a little bit dated. I have also done some >>>> changes to >>>> how it works: There will be no German section any more, because >>>> that >>>> was always a bad idea and has to go. I would like you to help me >>>> to >>>> police that as best as we can. Then, I removed the =E2=80=9Cdevelopment= =E2=80=9D >>>> area, because I believe that we do not need to have this on here >>>> at >>>> all. We have mailing lists for devlopment, bugs should be >>>> reported in >>>> Bugzilla, etc. I would like to separate those two things. The >>>> =E2=80=9Cconfiguration=E2=80=9D section is also gone, because pretty much >>>> everything >>>> on the forum is about how to configure something. It was a non- >>>> category. Now, I have split this into networking issues with some >>>> sub-sections for larger topics like QoS, Web Proxy and WiFi. >>>> There is >>>> a security section for IPS, Firewall Rules, etc. I considered >>>> VPNs to >>>> be important enough to have their own category. Mainly to be able >>>> to >>>> split it into OpenVPN & IPsec, too. >>>=20 >>> Regarding the dropped development section, we did there a lot of >>> testings in the community with regular users but always only a few >>> developers this was a kind of neat since mostly developers do not >>> have >>> the time to test other stuff (which was in first place my >>> experiences >>> on the mailinglist) but also another focus/insight to the system. >>> The >>> help of the community was there ideal, also reagrding for new >>> features >>> or further developments in a project since there was a feedback to >>> those where all that should belong to at the end. >>> This was a kind of filter system before patches and new >>> developments >>> was send to the mailinglist which saved at the end also time in >>> finding >>> bugs but also for explanation since there was mostly also a >>> reference >>> to look for not only for the core developer but also for the >>> community >>> after the changes has been released and it was not only a four eyes >>> principal but a multiple eye quality management possible. >>=20 >> Yes, I agree. This is not ideal that this is gone and agree with what >> you are saying. >>=20 >> However, I believe that this =E2=80=9Cparallel project=E2=80=9D is worse. >>=20 >> In the past, there have been loads of bugs been reported to the forum >> somewhere. Very often even in a post and not even an extra thread. >> Nobody has seen those, investigated them and most importantly nobody >> fixed them. A forum does not track those reports even - at all. > This is very understandable and have seen it and tried to redirect it > also many many times. For that, my idea to outline Bugzilla, the > mailnglists etc. easy to find also in discourse since the community > portal is mostly the first address (but very often the last one) where > people belongs to. That is why it is important that we create an open community where everyone f= eels welcome and where people don=E2=80=99t hesitate to ask beginner question= s - although I expect them to do their research. >>=20 >> I think IPFire could be a lot better because those small bugs which >> they usually are make the user experience a little bit shit. They are >> nasty problems, but they are not bad enough that someone really tries >> to have them fixed. So we need to channel them into the bug tracker. > This might be an important step if there is a easy way for the regular > user to find this opportunity but to report it also understandable to > prevent a forum discussion on bugzilla e.g. the rules of "how-to-write- > a-good-bug-report" needs then also to be know. Is there a way to line > this also out via discourse ? Why is it not enough when this is on the wiki? How would people find this in the depth of a forum? The wiki is a much better= place to be a compendium on how to submit patches and how to get started... >>=20 >> Do I want people to publicly debug their problems somewhere on the >> devel mailing list? Do I want people to dump a half-baked bug report >> there? No. Absolutely not. I regard the development mailing list a >> little bit like an office. There has to be enough information flow >> that everyone knows what it is going on, but when everyone is sitting >> at their desks, there needs to be enough quietness to be able to >> concentrate on something. For example: If we have 100 emails on there >> a day, nobody will be able to do any coding because we are all busy >> with reading emails. > This is exactly my concern above. There do not need to be a developer > section in discourse for this, i think mostly problems would come > nevertheless in the appropriate sections in the, should i say, > "community platform" (sounds still a little wierd ;). The development > section quota in the old Forum were mostly feature request and in > second place development topics sometimes with the appeal for help. Why does =E2=80=9CCommunity Portal=E2=80=9D sound weird to you? >=20 >>=20 >> So it all has upsides and downsides. >>=20 >> I would vote for trying it this way now and move people to the >> mailing list and bugtracker and teach them how to use those tools. I >> think this is key. Many people learned from GitHub that you just >> throw some information around. A bug, a pull request. And then >> someone will hopefully handle it. That is not what I want. We all >> should be playing a small role in this, but nobody should be doing >> this as an almost full-time job. > This can be huge in some cases. All the other platforms have a kind of > specific handling to use them as an appropriate tool for both sides. Am > currently not 100% sure how to reach also users with not that much > experience (which is daliy business for others). But may i am wrong > with my concerns in that manner and all will be go by the time it=C2=B4s > way... It might. And then we have to see it and change things, but I suppose that we= cannot foretell the future at this point. This is an attempt to change thing= s and there is always upsides and downsides. Ultimately I do not expect to lose anyone who wants to report a bug. An accou= nt is easy to create. Sending an email to the mailing list is not rocket scie= nce. There was someone very recently unable to send an email. If you cannot d= o that, how can you produce good patches? I think GitHub makes it too easy to throw patches at a project and what is th= e use of that? >>=20 >> We have a development area on the wiki: https://wiki.ipfire.org/devel >>=20 >> How is that as a general guide for people to know when and where to >> report things? > This guide is great but you will need people on the other side which > are a little deeper in that dev topic. I can imagine in some cases that > the obstacle is to high to report also the small things which makes in > the sum "user experience a little bit shit". The obstacle must be high, because I expect people to spend some time on figu= ring out why something isn=E2=80=99t working. We had loads of reports that said =E2=80=9Cthis does not work any more. Pleas= e fix=E2=80=9D. There is nothing that can be done when there is no informatio= n and it is a waste of time to ask every bug reporter about logs and this and= that. They need to collect all the information they have and then report the= bug. That is how a bug tracker works. >>=20 >> Do you think that we will lose debate with this approach? I believe >> that we already have enough places to developers to chat, users to >> put forward their suggestions=E2=80=A6 It is all there and we do not need = the >> forum. > I can not really forsee it, generaly spoken the resonance was different > on both platforms (dev and community) and in different ways very > usable. My concern is that the development part in the community will > lose debate at a first glance, which does not mean it will come again=20 > possibly then in another, may better, way ? There comes a lot of > changes with this (other language, stricter guidelines with more/other > platforms to use). I do not think it does. Most of us were not involved in any debate on the for= um and that is a problem. We have to places where we need to bring people together from. Stricter guidelines are just necessary because the community is growing. It i= s like a room full of people. Easy to keep order with two, but a thousand peo= ple in a room make a lot of noise and everyone does what they want to do. Tha= t is why we need rules and that is why we need to make sure that people follo= w them. >> Which does not mean by the way that a VPN problem cannot be talked >> about in the VPN section. I think this is even better than posting >> everything into =E2=80=9Cdevelopment=E2=80=9D, because isn=E2=80=99t it al= l development? > Yes in a way it is :D. So why not trying it in that way, may i see it > all a little too problematic... Because it is a support forum. Do not attempt to use it as a devel platform :) >=20 >>=20 >>> I can understand that you want to prevent a kind of parallel >>> project >>> development but this is only one side of the whole in my opinion. >>>=20 >>>> The challenges ahead >>>>=20 >>>> The whole migration is risky, we all need to do our best to keep >>>> the >>>> conversation going and invite people over. Blocking access to the >>>> old >>>> forum will probably make people rather angry than anything else. >>>> This >>>> has to happen, sooner rather than later, but we should try to >>>> make it >>>> as smooth as possible. >>>=20 >>> I think so, especially a english only platform will be a problem >>> for a >>> lot of people not sure where this leads to. >>=20 >> Yes, but we have talked about this 1000 times before. The motion was >> put forward, a conversation was being had over weeks and a decision >> was made. There were no objections that were valid enough to change >> the mind of the group. >>=20 >> I hope that we will be all very disciplined about this and help other >> people to follow this rule. > Let=C2=B4s try it. >=20 >>=20 >>>> There will also be the problem to fight spam accounts, which we >>>> now >>>> have to implement ourselves. We will have to see how this goes, >>>> but I >>>> cannot imagine this being even worse than what we have right now >>>> with >>>> our forum. >>>=20 >>> This is a main problem i think since ecspecially in the last >>> weeks/months there needed to be deleted several thousands of spam >>> accounts in only a few days in the forum. This problem have the >>> potential for an own employment if there is no good automated first >>> line of defense and even if, there needs to be more then one or two >>> people which regularily checks the posts but also irregularities in >>> the >>> registrations but this might be then a people.ipfire.org problem >>> and >>> have not that much to do with the administartion of the community >>> platform ?! >>=20 >> Would it make sense to have some notifications being sent to a group >> of moderators that will then delete an account if it looks >> suspicious? What makes an account suspicious? We only have a name, an >> email address and potentially an IP address. All of this does not >> really tell you if someone is a spammer, or does it? > In 80% it does. Names like e.g.: >=20 > =C2=BB RonaldSat, Bonnieeromi, AndrewIrork, charmdateoqd, charmdateevf, > Michaelweept, charmdatezyu, EdytheJ3, Brettthire, KiaSuisy, > charmdatebsy, charmdatejxa, charmdatekmz, Shaneinhix, charmdateubr, > MiaSuisy, charmdatehqy, hydrskymn, Kevinlof, charmdatetlc, > uaserialprofi, AnnaSuisy, Fannieexime, charmdatehdx, RonnieSadly, > KimSuisy, Sloche, NickSuisy, CalvinRiz, charmdatevly, oxacejuhedux, > Rodneybup, charmdateqji, RobertDaw, charmdatentt, charmdateitt, > EvaSuisy, charmdategjj, charmdateanu, Yqlrxya, JudySuisy, CarlSuisy, > CharlesSuisy, MilanRoy, RamonVuple, charmdateaoe, charmdatepod, > AmySuisy, charmdatejbl, Serieszpl, charmdatefxd, TedSuisy, > charmdateykm, charmdaternl, BillyDar, DennisEvall, charmdatebtj, > charmdatenpi, SueSuisy, charmdatevyu, AlanSuisy, KennethRek, > WarrenDyews, charmdateuod, Annden, JaneSuisy, FrankDrifs, KeithTup, > charmdateesg, EyeSuisy, Walterhew, AndrewUnure, Bennygoacy, MarySuisy, > charmdatevfa, charmdatezeg, JackSuisy, MarkSuisy, EmmittMix, > charmdateibc, Stewartbig, Rafonamvar=20 Yes, those looks not okay, but how can an piece of code find this? > can cleary be launched. Not sure how clear is this for others but after > a little while it gets clearer and clearer 8-\ ... but in such cases it > won=C2=B4t make sense to clean this garbage (sorry for that may a bot might > have also feelings :) by a moderator group cause stay ready for > thousands of them (hint --> phpBB inactive users). It would > nevertheless make sense to send notifications to a moderator group to > check the cleaned up rest since the rest of the ~ 20% comes > nevertheless into which left interesting links to unintersting sides > (viagra and such). Last but not least, to prevent camouflaged > advertising a check of posts needs also to be done... there is more. >=20 > In short, a moderator group is great but the daily business is more > then only moderate. I set up a moderator group on LDAP and I will send a separate email about it = tomorrow. You are in it. We need you :) >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> Some thoughts from here. >>=20 >> Greatly appreciated. Looking forward to hear your answers to my >> questions. > Hope there are some usable things in it. Am happy but also tensed with > the new upcoming changes :-) Always. See? Mailing lists work for conversations=E2=80=A6 Who says email is dead? Good night, -Michael >=20 >>=20 >> Best, >> -Michael >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Best, >>>=20 >>> Erik --===============0015471968851468571==--