Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Michael Tremer]

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Hi,

On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 21:02 +0900, Xaver4all wrote:
> I'm sorry that this information is not useful for your workflow,
> but I don't want to waste your and my time, to explain you my working
> scenario.

you must accept a certain discourse about these things. If we would
accept every patch without considering it carefully, we might have
really messed up distribution after a while. Everything that is added
must make sense, must not harm the system and must be maintained by
someone.

> But I will give two examples:
> I guess form your mail that you don't use the GUI to check the logs,
> because if you do so how do you tell how old is a given log entry.
> Or if you add a firewall rule which should only apply on workdays
> form 8-16 o'clock.
> So when you do something like this you have to connect via SSH and
> check the time
> and for the rest you use the GUI? IHO this is not very handy.
> Or do you just trust a system that is running 24/7 and you set the
> clock one's and believe that the time doesn't get messed up (even
> with an daily NTP update). There are Country's with daylight saving
> period so timezone offset could also get changed (at least on your
> workstation). 

So this a point for showing the system clock I can agree to. I would
like to suggest to add it to the already existing bar at the top,
because I think that it will fit wonderfully to the right of the speed
-o-meter which can be made a bit more narrow to make the needed space.

The time should definitely include the timezone. I am not sure if secon
ds must be included. A piece of JS that automatically updates the time
is nice, but must be optional for browsers that do not support JS.

Best,
-Michael

> 
> Kim
> > Hi, 
> > 
> > On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 04:03:26 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de>
> > wrote: 
> > 
> > > But time and timezone (you do not always administrate a machine
> > > that is 
> > > in the local timezone, or maybe use the UTC time for your
> > > network) 
> > > should really be displayed in GUI. 
> > > The Uptime should also be displayed, maybe only on the home site.
> > > I don't want to check the logs when was last reboot, or if I see
> > > uptime 
> > > is short I can check the logs for the reason. 
> > I don't understand why you need that information. When I want to
> > add a firewall rule or a VPN user, I couldn't care less for any of
> > that information. So, perhaps you want to explain how exactly this
> > is useful for your working scenario. 
> > 
> > 
> > Lars 
> > 
> 

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Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Xaver4all]

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Hi,

Date: 2015.09.09 - 23:27:19 - From: Michael Tremer
<michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 21:02 +0900, Xaver4all wrote:
>> I'm sorry that this information is not useful for your workflow,
>> but I don't want to waste your and my time, to explain you my working
>> scenario.
> you must accept a certain discourse about these things. If we would
> accept every patch without considering it carefully, we might have
> really messed up distribution after a while. Everything that is added
> must make sense, must not harm the system and must be maintained by
> someone.
I accept the discourse and I also like the you (the developer) think
twice before you accept patches.
I didn't expect that this patch would go in the way it is now.
I just wanted to express that this patch is not bound to my personal
working scenario.
Sorry that I may phrased it a bit harsh.
>> But I will give two examples:
>> I guess form your mail that you don't use the GUI to check the logs,
>> because if you do so how do you tell how old is a given log entry.
>> Or if you add a firewall rule which should only apply on workdays
>> form 8-16 o'clock.
>> So when you do something like this you have to connect via SSH and
>> check the time
>> and for the rest you use the GUI? IHO this is not very handy.
>> Or do you just trust a system that is running 24/7 and you set the
>> clock one's and believe that the time doesn't get messed up (even
>> with an daily NTP update). There are Country's with daylight saving
>> period so timezone offset could also get changed (at least on your
>> workstation). 
> So this a point for showing the system clock I can agree to. I would
> like to suggest to add it to the already existing bar at the top,
> because I think that it will fit wonderfully to the right of the speed
> -o-meter which can be made a bit more narrow to make the needed space.
>
> The time should definitely include the timezone. I am not sure if secon
> ds must be included. A piece of JS that automatically updates the time
> is nice, but must be optional for browsers that do not support JS.
Like i have written in the forum, by end of month I will provide a
different version.
I agree to perhaps drop the seconds, as it's a good way to save space.
>
> Best,
> -Michael
>
>> Kim
>>> Hi, 
>>>
>>> On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 04:03:26 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de>
>>> wrote: 
>>>
>>>> But time and timezone (you do not always administrate a machine
>>>> that is 
>>>> in the local timezone, or maybe use the UTC time for your
>>>> network) 
>>>> should really be displayed in GUI. 
>>>> The Uptime should also be displayed, maybe only on the home site.
>>>> I don't want to check the logs when was last reboot, or if I see
>>>> uptime 
>>>> is short I can check the logs for the reason. 
>>> I don't understand why you need that information. When I want to
>>> add a firewall rule or a VPN user, I couldn't care less for any of
>>> that information. So, perhaps you want to explain how exactly this
>>> is useful for your working scenario. 
>>>
>>>
>>> Lars 
>>>

Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Michael Tremer]

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On Thu, 2015-09-10 at 00:13 +0900, Xaver4all wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Date: 2015.09.09 - 23:27:19 - From: Michael Tremer
> <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Wed, 2015-09-02 at 21:02 +0900, Xaver4all wrote:
> > > I'm sorry that this information is not useful for your workflow,
> > > but I don't want to waste your and my time, to explain you my
> > > working
> > > scenario.
> > you must accept a certain discourse about these things. If we would
> > accept every patch without considering it carefully, we might have
> > really messed up distribution after a while. Everything that is
> > added
> > must make sense, must not harm the system and must be maintained by
> > someone.
> I accept the discourse and I also like the you (the developer) think
> twice before you accept patches.
> I didn't expect that this patch would go in the way it is now.

Most patches don't. That is why we have this list. I also expect you
all to review what is posted here as well, because I am sure I won't
spot everything.

> I just wanted to express that this patch is not bound to my personal
> working scenario.
> Sorry that I may phrased it a bit harsh.
> > > But I will give two examples:
> > > I guess form your mail that you don't use the GUI to check the
> > > logs,
> > > because if you do so how do you tell how old is a given log
> > > entry.
> > > Or if you add a firewall rule which should only apply on workdays
> > > form 8-16 o'clock.
> > > So when you do something like this you have to connect via SSH
> > > and
> > > check the time
> > > and for the rest you use the GUI? IHO this is not very handy.
> > > Or do you just trust a system that is running 24/7 and you set
> > > the
> > > clock one's and believe that the time doesn't get messed up (even
> > > with an daily NTP update). There are Country's with daylight
> > > saving
> > > period so timezone offset could also get changed (at least on
> > > your
> > > workstation). 
> > So this a point for showing the system clock I can agree to. I
> > would
> > like to suggest to add it to the already existing bar at the top,
> > because I think that it will fit wonderfully to the right of the
> > speed
> > -o-meter which can be made a bit more narrow to make the needed
> > space.
> > 
> > The time should definitely include the timezone. I am not sure if
> > secon
> > ds must be included. A piece of JS that automatically updates the
> > time
> > is nice, but must be optional for browsers that do not support JS.
> Like i have written in the forum, by end of month I will provide a
> different version.
> I agree to perhaps drop the seconds, as it's a good way to save
> space.

I mainly think that seconds are pointless since time will always be a
couple of seconds off. That is because of it being transferred from the
firewall system to the browser where there is link latency.

> > 
> > Best,
> > -Michael
> > 
> > > Kim
> > > > Hi, 
> > > > 
> > > > On Wed, 02 Sep 2015 04:03:26 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de
> > > > >
> > > > wrote: 
> > > > 
> > > > > But time and timezone (you do not always administrate a
> > > > > machine
> > > > > that is 
> > > > > in the local timezone, or maybe use the UTC time for your
> > > > > network) 
> > > > > should really be displayed in GUI. 
> > > > > The Uptime should also be displayed, maybe only on the home
> > > > > site.
> > > > > I don't want to check the logs when was last reboot, or if I
> > > > > see
> > > > > uptime 
> > > > > is short I can check the logs for the reason. 
> > > > I don't understand why you need that information. When I want
> > > > to
> > > > add a firewall rule or a VPN user, I couldn't care less for any
> > > > of
> > > > that information. So, perhaps you want to explain how exactly
> > > > this
> > > > is useful for your working scenario. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Lars 
> > > > 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Larsen]

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Hi Kim,

I have been using this for not so long either, but I can tell you that  
patches should be sent inline (no attachment) and you have to disable  
line-wrap in your mail client.
Some examples: http://patchwork.ipfire.org/project/ipfire/list/


hth,
Lars


On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:52 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> this is my first time using this mailing-list thing,
> so hopefully I do everything according to your CoC.
>
> [PATCH]
> add actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme.
> position can be configured in GUI user-settings, default is off.
>
> future reference, German discussion in forum:
> http://forum.ipfire.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12177
>
> attached is a patch against the actual next branch
>
> br,
> Kim

Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Michael Tremer]

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Hello,

On Thu, 2015-08-13 at 15:00 +0200, Larsen wrote:
> Hi Kim,
> 
> I have been using this for not so long either, but I can tell you 
> that  
> patches should be sent inline (no attachment) and you have to disable


Indeed, we can comment on an inline patch much easier. Patchwork
however parsed the attachment correctly, so it is okay for this time.
  
> line-wrap in your mail client.
> Some examples: http://patchwork.ipfire.org/project/ipfire/list/

On the thing itself: I saw the conversation on the IPFire forum and
must say that I do not really get why all this information is needed on
the web user interface. So I would like to discuss this first before
looking closely at the patch.

Time: I get that this is a good information to know just to check if
the clock of the system is running correctly. If the timezone needs to
be included if it is local time is debatable.

Load: I do not really understand why this is an important information
that should be on every single page of the web user interface. Most
users do not even really understand the meaning of these values and
often worry about numbers above a certain value they are used to.

I think this could be as well below the load graph.

Logged in users and uptime: There is no point in this. I wonder why you
find this is important.

So this information is automatically updated by Javascript every other
second. This will always return a wrong time because there is obviously
lots of latency on the network. What is wrong with just embedding the
time when the page was generated?

I just would like to hear your objective or opinion on this.

Best,
-Michael

> 
> hth,
> Lars
> 
> 
> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:52 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > this is my first time using this mailing-list thing,
> > so hopefully I do everything according to your CoC.
> > 
> > [PATCH]
> > add actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme.
> > position can be configured in GUI user-settings, default is off.
> > 
> > future reference, German discussion in forum:
> > http://forum.ipfire.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12177
> > 
> > attached is a patch against the actual next branch
> > 
> > br,
> > Kim

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Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Matthias Fischer]

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Hi,

my few cents for this:

I'm used to see some (important) information by the *first* look, 
especially things regarding the actual 'time', 'uptime', 'load' and 
'traffic'. For example: in the past I had to search for the load graph 
to see if "something is going on", now I see it at a glance. Good. For 
me, this is an important information, other opinions may vary...

In my view, 'Date' and 'User:' are not so important, similar to the 
'Automatic update'-feature. For me it would be ok, if this would be 
static and only updated generating the current page.

This is why I originally added these wanted information by simply adding 
some ~kind of 'uptime'-command to my footer:
http://forum.ipfire.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12177#p88508

Furthermore, I noticed that keeping a page open costs some system load, 
generated by Javascript(?).

Jm2C
Regards
Matthias


On 13.08.2015 18:33, Michael Tremer wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Thu, 2015-08-13 at 15:00 +0200, Larsen wrote:
>> Hi Kim,
>>
>> I have been using this for not so long either, but I can tell you
>> that
>> patches should be sent inline (no attachment) and you have to disable
>
>
> Indeed, we can comment on an inline patch much easier. Patchwork
> however parsed the attachment correctly, so it is okay for this time.
>
>> line-wrap in your mail client.
>> Some examples: http://patchwork.ipfire.org/project/ipfire/list/
>
> On the thing itself: I saw the conversation on the IPFire forum and
> must say that I do not really get why all this information is needed on
> the web user interface. So I would like to discuss this first before
> looking closely at the patch.
>
> Time: I get that this is a good information to know just to check if
> the clock of the system is running correctly. If the timezone needs to
> be included if it is local time is debatable.
>
> Load: I do not really understand why this is an important information
> that should be on every single page of the web user interface. Most
> users do not even really understand the meaning of these values and
> often worry about numbers above a certain value they are used to.
>
> I think this could be as well below the load graph.
>
> Logged in users and uptime: There is no point in this. I wonder why you
> find this is important.
>
> So this information is automatically updated by Javascript every other
> second. This will always return a wrong time because there is obviously
> lots of latency on the network. What is wrong with just embedding the
> time when the page was generated?
>
> I just would like to hear your objective or opinion on this.
>
> Best,
> -Michael
>
>>
>> hth,
>> Lars
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:52 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > this is my first time using this mailing-list thing,
>> > so hopefully I do everything according to your CoC.
>> >
>> > [PATCH]
>> > add actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme.
>> > position can be configured in GUI user-settings, default is off.
>> >
>> > future reference, German discussion in forum:
>> > http://forum.ipfire.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12177
>> >
>> > attached is a patch against the actual next branch
>> >
>> > br,
>> > Kim
>

Re: [PATCH] actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme

[Michael Tremer]

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On Thu, 2015-08-13 at 19:33 +0200, Matthias Fischer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> my few cents for this:
> 
> I'm used to see some (important) information by the *first* look, 
> especially things regarding the actual 'time', 'uptime', 'load' and 
> 'traffic'. For example: in the past I had to search for the load 
> graph 
> to see if "something is going on", now I see it at a glance. Good. 
> For 
> me, this is an important information, other opinions may vary...

I get that, but the firewall is not really a good thing to check for
the time. You will also not really notice if the clock is a minute or
two off.

Why do you check the uptime on your machines? And what does the load
tell you? The only thing that is interesting to know about the load is
how it develops over time and we have that in a graph.

> In my view, 'Date' and 'User:' are not so important, similar to the 
> 'Automatic update'-feature. For me it would be ok, if this would be 
> static and only updated generating the current page.
> 
> This is why I originally added these wanted information by simply 
> adding 
> some ~kind of 'uptime'-command to my footer:
> http://forum.ipfire.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12177#p88508
> 
> Furthermore, I noticed that keeping a page open costs some system 
> load, 
> generated by Javascript(?).

This will fork a new perl process every time, load the code of the web
user interface, execute the CGI and then send back the result. I did
not look at the code what is done and how often it is done.

Not sure what you are asking, but this creates load on both the client
and firewall.

-Michael

> 
> Jm2C
> Regards
> Matthias
> 
> 
> On 13.08.2015 18:33, Michael Tremer wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > On Thu, 2015-08-13 at 15:00 +0200, Larsen wrote:
> > > Hi Kim,
> > > 
> > > I have been using this for not so long either, but I can tell you
> > > that
> > > patches should be sent inline (no attachment) and you have to 
> > > disable
> > 
> > 
> > Indeed, we can comment on an inline patch much easier. Patchwork
> > however parsed the attachment correctly, so it is okay for this 
> > time.
> > 
> > > line-wrap in your mail client.
> > > Some examples: http://patchwork.ipfire.org/project/ipfire/list/
> > 
> > On the thing itself: I saw the conversation on the IPFire forum and
> > must say that I do not really get why all this information is 
> > needed on
> > the web user interface. So I would like to discuss this first 
> > before
> > looking closely at the patch.
> > 
> > Time: I get that this is a good information to know just to check 
> > if
> > the clock of the system is running correctly. If the timezone needs 
> > to
> > be included if it is local time is debatable.
> > 
> > Load: I do not really understand why this is an important 
> > information
> > that should be on every single page of the web user interface. Most
> > users do not even really understand the meaning of these values and
> > often worry about numbers above a certain value they are used to.
> > 
> > I think this could be as well below the load graph.
> > 
> > Logged in users and uptime: There is no point in this. I wonder why 
> > you
> > find this is important.
> > 
> > So this information is automatically updated by Javascript every 
> > other
> > second. This will always return a wrong time because there is 
> > obviously
> > lots of latency on the network. What is wrong with just embedding 
> > the
> > time when the page was generated?
> > 
> > I just would like to hear your objective or opinion on this.
> > 
> > Best,
> > -Michael
> > 
> > > 
> > > hth,
> > > Lars
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Thu, 13 Aug 2015 14:50:52 +0200, Xaver4all <xaver4all(a)gmx.de>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > 
> > > > this is my first time using this mailing-list thing,
> > > > so hopefully I do everything according to your CoC.
> > > > 
> > > > [PATCH]
> > > > add actual system time and timezone info-bar to ipfire theme.
> > > > position can be configured in GUI user-settings, default is 
> > > > off.
> > > > 
> > > > future reference, German discussion in forum:
> > > > http://forum.ipfire.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12177
> > > > 
> > > > attached is a patch against the actual next branch
> > > > 
> > > > br,
> > > > Kim
> > 
> 

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