Re: The parallel projects (was Re: Apache 2.4 and php 5.6 test branch)

[Michael Tremer <michael.tremer@ipfire.org>]

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Hello,

On Sat, 2016-01-23 at 09:23 +0100, Dirk Reitz wrote:
> Morning guys,
> 
> let me have a few words on this subject …
> 
> 1. The problem startet with the development section of the forum
> (offered even in two languages - german and english).
> This implies that development of IPFire as well as add-ons is taking
> place there.
> Far later someone might realize, that there is another place (this
> mailing-list) where the actual development evolves.

I do not get why you are going on about this. It is perfectly fine that
you are having your space there where you do your things.

I just pointed out (repeatedly) that this is not the place where I am
getting involved.

> 2. What I have seen as answers on this mailing-list, the majority
> just wants a secure, ip-table based router with an web-interface.
> If that is the case, at least 80% of the current add-ons should be
> kicked out. Even quite a lot of the so called core is obsolet.

That is a different topic. IPFire is what it is right now and it will
remain to be that.

> 3. Marcel has clearly marked our development as ‚project‘. He even
> wrote a nice (not 100% finished yet) installer script to add and
> remove the functionality of the project(s) to IPFire. As far as I
> know, neither Marcel or anybody else of the people involved in the
> project have asked for help from the core developers (who ever they
> are …) or requested integration of the project into IPFire.

I neither do get why you are going on about the wording. I guess what
you are having there is a "project". I would call it a project. Maybe
you should finally accept that is not only about the mail server/proxy.
There is also multiple versions of the update accelerator that are
being developed independently from each other. Hence I called this
thread "parallel projects" because those are developed in parallel to
each other.

People who have been involved in your "project" or conversation reached
out to me and did in fact ask for my help, when this will be merged and
asked me to coordinate. I declined for the most part.

> 4. If you like or not, the language barrier is there. You can
> actually see it in this discussion. I am pretty sure, some
> expressions weren’t meant as they were - harsh. Talking about
> technical features in a foreign language is a total different thing
> than to express yourself or your opinion about something.

I do not deny it but I certainly don't like it, indeed. I think
learning a language is something everyone can do though.

As you are making this all about the mail server project, Marcel mailed
with other people in English. However, he just does not want to take
part in a discussion on here as he said to me in private. That is a
completely different thing and you cannot use that as an argument for
the language barrier.

> Michael, I hope you can contemplate about your conclusion, may be
> even think about dropping the mailing-list instead.

That is not an option at all. The developers I have spoken with want
this list and they like it. So it is not just me thrusting something
upon all of the others - in case it came across like this.

> Just in case you are sticking to the mailing-list and this procedure
> of development of IPFire, I kindly ask you where can I find the rules
> and procedures of involvement in writing (please don’t answer
> wiki.ipfire.org …).

Sure, the starting point for this is here:

  http://wiki.ipfire.org/devel/start

Where you will find about how to get in touch with the developers 

  http://wiki.ipfire.org/devel/contact
  http://wiki.ipfire.org/devel/mailing-lists

There is also a quick paragraph about where to report bugs and where
*NOT* to report bugs:

  http://wiki.ipfire.org/devel/bugzilla

Despite that we do not have a strict rule book where it says how we
should treat each other as I think that is not required. Many of these
rules are unwritten as they are common sense. Like Kant.

And as you guys know about one of them already, I would like you to
remind to obey that one. We talk in English on this list. The vast
majority of the people subscribed here do *NOT* speak German.

And an other reminder. Information on how to submit patches can be
found here:

  http://wiki.ipfire.org/devel/submit-patches

> BTW - I am very interested about the development of IPFire v3. So far
> I haven’t been able to find much about it beside some sources in the
> git - is there another place I should go ??

This list is the place to go. The biggest part of development is taking
part off list in personal conversations (as in we are talking on the
phone). This is not ideal, but it is how it has evolved. I am trying to
put as much on this list as possible. Despite that there is the bug
tracker and we have a monthly telephone conference.

And as a final comment I can only recommend to ask. I am not expecting
from anyone to know all the things. Search the archive of this list if
something has been asked before. If not, feel free to ask.

Best,
-Michael

> brgds and have a nice weekend
> Dirk
> 
> > Am 23.01.2016 um 03:19 schrieb Michael Tremer <
> > michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>:
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > so to put an end to this discussion (I think we have heard the
> > opinions
> > of everyone who this matters to), I would like to quickly recap and
> > propose some actions we/I will now take.
> > 
> > So Marcel (aka gocart on the forums) has unfortunately contacted me
> > privately because he doesn't want to discuss this on this mailing
> > list
> > for several reasons. He allowed me to publish the content of that
> > conversation. I won't post the full text (it is in German any way),
> > but
> > pick some points that I found interesting.
> > 
> > The first of the reasons why he is not taking part in this
> > conversation
> > on this list is that there is a language barrier and secondly he
> > finds
> > this list "useless". The latter one of these left me quite puzzled.
> > I
> > expressed my disappointment about that and asked again that he
> > would
> > think about it but there has been no reply.
> > 
> > He agrees that there have to be rules when many people are working
> > together, but he does not accept ours. Even having this debate
> > about
> > these rules is a waste of time to him. It actually is, but rules
> > have
> > to be set up and and they have to be challenged from time to time.
> > 
> > Upstreaming work is a matter of leaving it in a git repository
> > until
> > somebody takes over. He is refusing a discussion about his work.
> > 
> > Just to remind you: This was never about just him. There are other
> > parallel projects. He is just the only person who voiced himself a
> > little bit. The others didn't.
> > 
> > 
> > So I come to my personal conclusion that I will just leave the
> > stuff as
> > it is. I won't talk with these people as there is clearly no point.
> > I
> > won't feel a bit responsible for what they are doing there.
> > 
> > If someone wants to take their stuff and post it to the list in an
> > orderly fashion that is something else. Maybe these people can
> > agree
> > that one member of the team is talking to the rest of the
> > developers as
> > a spokesman. I find that just silly, but there might be other ways.
> > 
> > For me, stuff happens on this list. Nowhere else. Period.
> > 
> > 
> > The other consequence I am taking is to rename the development area
> > on
> > the forums. My first idea was to just get rid of it, but I guess
> > people
> > will be posting their stuff in other sub-forums then. So it will
> > just
> > be renamed to clearly state that this is *not* the place where
> > development happens so that nobody can complain that "the
> > developers"
> > don't reply to their posts. There is this list. There is Bugzilla.
> > These are the places to go.
> > 
> > 
> > I hope that these changes will improve the situation. I am in no
> > way
> > trying to deter those contributors from contributing to this
> > project. I
> > am trying to do the opposite which is to steer them towards
> > contributing their patches in a way that we can review them,
> > improve
> > them if necessary, and then merge them into the distribution so
> > that
> > IPFire becomes better. This process however needs to follow rules
> > and
> > it appears that we have to enforce those even more.
> > 
> > Feel free to comment on this, but please keep it short if you can
> > because I want to focus on other things. Just in case someone is
> > interested in the PMs from Marcel let me know and I will post them,
> > too.
> > 
> > Best,
> > -Michael

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