From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: I am taking a little break Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:33:03 +0000 Message-ID: <25FC8089-7894-4393-A111-2A434E8831F3@ipfire.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5290312764074073668==" List-Id: --===============5290312764074073668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bernhard, > On 11 Jan 2021, at 15:26, Bernhard Bitsch wrote: >=20 > Hi to all, >=20 > I can fully agree with Michaels opinion. >=20 > The community is a mix of help requests, problem reports, ... > Each category contains posts with essence and those which just say "Not fun= ctioning" or "IPFire is incomplete in this or the other area". > To my opinion many of the latter posts just originate in false expectations= . This can be not really understanding what IPFire is for or how networking w= orks.=20 > Another problem in this area is, that more and more users think it is possi= ble just to install an "app" ( without cost!) and all problems are solved. Fo= r this you must not know, how internet communications work, it is enough that= the developers know this. I think this sums it up really well. There are a bunch of people out there th= at simply expect that IPFire will do everything automatically, but is takes m= ore than that to set up a network. > Sometimes my reaction to these posts is sarcasm, doesn't help to solve the = problem but helps me to calm down. ;) Same, and I haven=E2=80=99t always been very nice. > I've decided now trying to minimize this reaction. I'll just be quiet in su= ch a case and try to tolerate the "screaming" about no help. I did the same, and over a couple of weeks tried to open the portal, look for= only one post where I could say something constructive, but I didn=E2=80=99t= find anything. I only had annoying things to say and instead of doing that I= stayed silent. Maybe we were too spoiled in the past. > We need a forum ( whatever the software is ) because this is the tool of co= mmunication which is awaited by most users. The "inner circle" just must lear= n to ignore false or irrelevant postings, as in all fields in everyday life. I do not agree with the =E2=80=9Cinner circle=E2=80=9D concept, but believe t= hat everyone probably has to just let the trolls be. Very interesting thoughts, Bernhard :) -Michael >=20 > Regards, > Bernhard >=20 >=20 >> Gesendet: Montag, 11. Januar 2021 um 15:28 Uhr >> Von: "Michael Tremer" >> An: "Jon Murphy" >> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org >> Betreff: Re: I am taking a little break >>=20 >> Hello all, >>=20 >> Thank you everyone for your kind words on this matter. I appreciate it ver= y much, although I didn=E2=80=99t know how to respond back then. >>=20 >>> On 26 Nov 2020, at 03:47, Jon Murphy wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Michael, >>>=20 >>> Sorry for the late reply to your note. I've been sick the past few days = and sleeping too much. All is good now. >>>=20 >>> Sorry for what you are going through. It really takes the joy out of wor= king especially when working at something you love. Nobody should ever be su= bject to this abuse. >>=20 >> Luckily, absuse has somewhat disappeared recently. I am getting rather kin= d emails from users or people send me a nice email and said why they donated = a couple of bucks to the project. That feels really nice. >>=20 >>> I completely agree with taking a step aside. Take whatever time is neede= d. You definitely deserve the time off! >>=20 >> Yes, many people told me that they can absolutely understand my - rather c= onfusing - reasoning, because they have considered the same. Various people a= re popping in and out of the forum and are usually leaving with a feeling of = disappointment. >>=20 >> I do not want that. >>=20 >> I want our community to be a nice one. Although this is not the lounge of = the Internet and people come here to solve a problem, there is no need that t= his cannot be done in a nice way. >>=20 >> Two months ago, I was considering to simply shut down the community portal= . It has been a pain point for a long time, and the transition from the old s= oftware to Discourse has not really helped too much. I do not know really wha= t I expected but at least a change in dynamic. >>=20 >>> I would suggest never fully reading the nasty messages. Find a nasty par= t - hit the delete key! It won't give you any insight to their problem and i= t isn't worth your time. And it will definitely bring you down. >>=20 >> As I heard, more messages have been deleted without any further ado. Has t= hat helped? I do not know. Did anyone notice change? >>=20 >>> After the November holiday I'll reach out to the Community moderations. = I have a few thoughts and suggestions of ways to make this better: (e.g., wat= chlist / sh**list of bad apples, flagging sh** messages ). It'll probably ta= ke 100 little things that'll make the difference. >>>=20 >>> Side thought: I use Apple Mail and SpamSieve. Maybe you can set its cor= pus up with nasty words (e.g., arsehole) from nasty messages. Trash anything= nasty before reading it! The delete key is your friend! =20 >>=20 >> People don=E2=80=99t use nasty language. After all, I am German and that l= anguage is a lot filthier than English. We say things as they are, and that i= s not really what is bothering me. >>=20 >> What is bothering me more is that people are wasting my time, because I am= not really convinced that they are hoping to get their problem fixed with em= ails like this. They want to vent. Maybe it is a sign of the times that they = cannot do it elsewhere, and maybe we are simply the first victim that they ra= ndomly find. It does=E2=80=99t really matter. >>=20 >> One of the recent public examples would be this tweet: https://twitter.com= /BaatorianPrince/status/1344704180913627141 >>=20 >> =E2=80=9CNothing works=E2=80=9D. Well, I am glad for you that you found be= tter software. This software works absolutely fine for me. >>=20 >>> Hope you are able to get out and do something different! >>=20 >> The pandemic does not really help with this, but I found some time to do s= omething different :) >>=20 >> But now, I would like to talk about how we can fix this. The other day, we= got a message from another person who said that they gave up on the Communit= y Portal and I cannot accept that. Me not being a leading example here, it is= not what I want. >>=20 >> It is not a requirement in the project to read every single post on there,= and of course I cannot and do not want to force anyone to do things they do = not enjoy. >>=20 >> But if we want to keep the Community alive, we all need to engage with it = in some way. >>=20 >> So I am here to ask for ideas on how we can achieve this? I would like to = have a conversation about what is going wrong (are we doing something wrong o= r is it just the same everywhere else) and what we can do about it. >>=20 >> To me, engaging with the community is essential to good development and ul= timately to the success of the project. Right now, it does not give a very go= od image of us and what are all doing. >>=20 >> How can we fix this? >>=20 >> Best, >> -Michael >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Take care! >>> Jon >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:17:32 +0000 >>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>> To: "IPFire: Development-List" >>>> Subject: I am taking a little break >>>> Message-ID: >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>=20 >>>> Hello everyone, >>>>=20 >>>> I would like to announce that I am taking a hiatus from the support foru= m on community.ipfire.org. >>>>=20 >>>> The main reason is not new, but I thought that it has been enough in the= last few weeks: The amount of abuse I receive is unreasonable. It comes in p= ersonal messages, emails and on public forums and are often quite personal. >>>>=20 >>>> I do not want to give any examples, because those people do not deserve = that their message is being singled out. There is no incident in particular t= hat has caused me frustration, but you all have seen what is being posted pub= licly and that is good enough to work as a foundation to what I would like to= point out... >>>>=20 >>>> We have a bit of a problem with our discourse. People have an entitlemen= t problem, put no work into their posts and expect - or even demand - people = to do their job for them. >>>>=20 >>>> I feel that reading those posts and writing a response which is not bein= g read by the original poster (let alone them trying to implement what I sugg= ested) is a waste of time. Of course it is up to them, but why would you ask = in the first place? Usually the problem is that it was not understood what I = answered. >>>>=20 >>>> Who would have thought that IT security is hard? >>>>=20 >>>> I am tired of trying to educate people about the most basic things that = are required to run IPFire. I am sick and tired of seeing IPFire being used w= rong and therefore people complaining about things that do not work as they w= ant them. I feel like I am explaining the same things over and over again. >>>>=20 >>>> I am done with having endless debates about the same topics which are do= ne already. Different people bring up the same arguments again but that does = not change anything. They complain when not being answered in length when the= y are just too lazy to search for the answer in a previous post. >>>>=20 >>>> I am being very frustrated and this is not good for neither me or the co= mmunity. >>>>=20 >>>> Not coming across as my finest recently I believe that I am starting to = act unfairly towards people who have not done anything wrong and try to make = a difference in this project. It will be better if I invested my time into th= ose things than those outlined above. >>>>=20 >>>> Closing the forum entirely was a thought that crossed my mind many more = times than once - and I know that I am not the online one who is thinking tha= t. It was in fact debated on our monthly team meeting before. >>>>=20 >>>> I do not care about the offenders and bullies at all. Trolls are gonna t= roll. There is only very little chance to point someone into the right direct= ion and help them to help themselves. I would rather prefer to have a smaller= user base instead of having these people who are destroying the community - = willingly or unwillingly. >>>>=20 >>>> We are an open source project - one community. I do care a lot about tha= t - and I would not allow anyone to destroy what we have all achieved togethe= r. It is sad to say, that it only needs very few people to spoil it for the r= est of us. >>>>=20 >>>> My personal pride aside, those who know me in person can tell you that I= do not care much about any defamation towards me, or accusations, blame or b= eing called an arsehole. But I do know for a fact that others take them less = lightly. >>>>=20 >>>> Some things recently have stopped being fun and are now quite the opposi= te. To avoid ruining mine and other people?s days I have decided to stop read= ing and replying on the support forum. I am not contributing anything useful = for anyone and it has not given me any input that will help me to do my job b= etter. This won?t be a big loss to anyone. >>>>=20 >>>> I would even encourage the rest of you who feel passionate about it help= to make that place useful again. It is the only place that we have where our= community can be. >>>>=20 >>>> This announcement is just there to let you all know that my perception o= f the project might vary from yours in the near future. I will of course be a= round on the development mailing list and get involved in the debates that we= have on here and would like to remind everyone to keep development talk on t= his list for that reason and avoid having that on the support forum. >>>>=20 >>>> If anyone has something to say about this, I would be happy to read your= thoughts. If you do not want to disclose them in public, feel free to email = me in private, too. >>>>=20 >>>> And now I am going to focus on that massive pile of work I have to do? >>>>=20 >>>> Best, >>>> -Michael >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 --===============5290312764074073668==--