Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Jonatan Schlag]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6872 bytes --]

Hi,


16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.


I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.



> 
> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
> that is technically difficult.

I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.


I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
technically
difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
will have to read not more and not less.

> 
> I’ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
> the same as IPFire).  
> 
> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
> well for me.
> 
> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
> thing!
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Jon Murphy
> > Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
> > To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org, 
> > development(a)lists.ipfire.org
> > Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
> > 
> > 
> > Oops…  maybe my bad?
> > 
> > 
> > > ------------------------------
> > > 
> > > Message: 3
> > > Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
> > > From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> > > To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
> > > Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
> > > Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
> > > Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
> > > Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> > > 
> > > Hi Tim,
> > > 
> > > Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
> > > 
> > > I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
> > > 
> > > This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
> > > although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
> > > not helpful to anyone:
> > > 
> > > * We do not have documentation for everything for a start


So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.

> > > * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
> > > will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
> > > 
> > > Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
> > > encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
> > > before they do something?

I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
issue.

The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.

So to sum up what I try to explain:
We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
have some questions left.

@Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
such things from code

@Michael:
I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
The guys at nextcloud have something like this:

https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png 

Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
directions in the web interface itself?

Greetings Jonatan

> > > 
> > > What is your rationale to implementing this?
> > > 
> > > Best,
> > > -Michael
> > > 
> > > > On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
> > > > ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > Add per-page help link to GUI.
> > > > The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
> > > > Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
> > > > themes.
> > > > 
> > > > Tim FitzGeorge (3):
> > > > Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
> > > > Help for GUI - Help links
> > > > Help for GUI - help link style
> > > > 
> > > > config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
> > > > config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
> > > > config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
> > > > config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
> > > > config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
> > > > config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
> > > > config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
> > > > ++++++++++++-------
> > > > config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
> > > > config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
> > > > config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
> > > > config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
> > > > config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
> > > > config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
> > > > html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
> > > > html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
> > > > 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > 2.26.1
> > > > 

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Michael Tremer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7901 bytes --]

Hey,

> On 21 May 2020, at 19:51, Jonatan Schlag <jonatan.schlag(a)ipfire.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
>> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
>> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.
> 
> 
> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
>> that is technically difficult.
> 
> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.

I suggested that. People cannot start somewhere in the middle.

You will have to learn how to set up a network somewhere from the start. Ironing out mistakes is getting more difficult the larger it grows. Plenty of companies therefore struggle with their technological debt.

I am not suggesting that reading our wiki will prevent you from making those mistakes, but it is at least a place where you will learn how to avoid making some of them. And that won’t fit into only a single paragraph.

> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
> technically
> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
> will have to read not more and not less.
> 
>> 
>> I’ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
>> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
>> the same as IPFire).  

This is a completely different thing though.

I sometimes bake things. Literally nothing can go wrong there. It is not dangerous, it won’t cost me a fortune when I lose customer data (as a company) and so on.

Security is so invisible and so difficult to understand for many and that is what makes the difference for me.

>> 
>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
>> well for me.
>> 
>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
>> thing!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> From: Jon Murphy
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org, 
>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Oops…  maybe my bad?
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
>>>> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>>>> 
>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>>>> 
>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
>>>> not helpful to anyone:
>>>> 
>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
> 
> 
> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.
> 
>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
>>>> 
>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
>>>> before they do something?
> 
> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
> issue.
> 
> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.
> 
> So to sum up what I try to explain:
> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
> have some questions left.
> 
> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
> such things from code
> 
> @Michael:
> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
> The guys at nextcloud have something like this:
> 
> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png 
> 
> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
> directions in the web interface itself?

Yes, we could do something like this.

-Michael

> 
> Greetings Jonatan
> 
>>>> 
>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> -Michael
>>>> 
>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
>>>>> themes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links
>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style
>>>>> 
>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
>>>>> ++++++++++++-------
>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> 2.26.1

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Jon Murphy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8714 bytes --]

Where did this end up?  Is it OK to move forward?

I don't mind creating wiki pages for the missing items if someone can point out what needs to be created.

Jon

> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:19:48 +0100
> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> To: Jonatan Schlag <jonatan.schlag(a)ipfire.org>
> Cc: Jon Murphy <jcmurphy26(a)gmail.com>, "IPFire: Development-List"
> 	<development(a)lists.ipfire.org>
> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
> Message-ID: <B1130640-0C7D-4CCF-9F32-34751B90E8B3(a)ipfire.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> Hey,
> 
>> On 21 May 2020, at 19:51, Jonatan Schlag <jonatan.schlag(a)ipfire.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
>>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
>>> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
>>> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
>>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.
>> 
>> 
>> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
>> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
>>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
>>> that is technically difficult.
>> 
>> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
>> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
>> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
>> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
>> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.
> 
> I suggested that. People cannot start somewhere in the middle.
> 
> You will have to learn how to set up a network somewhere from the start. Ironing out mistakes is getting more difficult the larger it grows. Plenty of companies therefore struggle with their technological debt.
> 
> I am not suggesting that reading our wiki will prevent you from making those mistakes, but it is at least a place where you will learn how to avoid making some of them. And that won?t fit into only a single paragraph.
> 
>> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
>> technically
>> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
>> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
>> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
>> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
>> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
>> will have to read not more and not less.
>> 
>>> 
>>> I?ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
>>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
>>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
>>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
>>> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
>>> the same as IPFire).  
> 
> This is a completely different thing though.
> 
> I sometimes bake things. Literally nothing can go wrong there. It is not dangerous, it won?t cost me a fortune when I lose customer data (as a company) and so on.
> 
> Security is so invisible and so difficult to understand for many and that is what makes the difference for me.
> 
>>> 
>>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
>>> well for me.
>>> 
>>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
>>> thing!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> From: Jon Murphy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
>>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org, 
>>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oops?  maybe my bad?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
>>>>> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
>>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
>>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
>>>>> not helpful to anyone:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
>> 
>> 
>> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
>> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.
>> 
>>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
>>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
>>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
>>>>> before they do something?
>> 
>> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
>> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
>> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
>> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
>> issue.
>> 
>> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
>> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
>> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
>> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
>> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
>> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
>> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.
>> 
>> So to sum up what I try to explain:
>> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
>> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
>> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
>> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
>> have some questions left.
>> 
>> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
>> such things from code
>> 
>> @Michael:
>> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
>> The guys at nextcloud have something like this:
>> 
>> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png 
>> 
>> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
>> directions in the web interface itself?
> 
> Yes, we could do something like this.
> 
> -Michael
> 
>> 
>> Greetings Jonatan
>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> -Michael
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
>>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
>>>>>> themes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links
>>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
>>>>>> ++++++++++++-------
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> 2.26.1
> 
> 
> 

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Michael Tremer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 15817 bytes --]



> On 21 May 2020, at 20:31, Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> On 21/05/2020 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
>>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
>>> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
>>> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
>>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.
>> 
>> 
>> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
>> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
>>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
>>> that is technically difficult.
>> 
>> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
>> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
>> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
>> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
>> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.
>> 
>> 
>> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
>> technically
>> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
>> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
>> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
>> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
>> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
>> will have to read not more and not less.
>> 
>>> 
>>> I’ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
>>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
>>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
>>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
>>> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
>>> the same as IPFire).  
>>> 
>>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
>>> well for me.
>>> 
>>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
>>> thing!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> From: Jon Murphy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
>>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org, 
>>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oops…  maybe my bad?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
>>>>> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
>>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
>>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
>>>>> not helpful to anyone:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
>> 
>> 
>> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
>> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.
>> 
>>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
>>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
>>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
>>>>> before they do something?
>> 
>> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
>> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
>> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
>> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
>> issue.
>> 
>> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
>> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
>> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
>> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
>> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
>> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
>> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.
>> 
>> So to sum up what I try to explain:
>> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
>> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
>> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
>> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
>> have some questions left.
>> 
>> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
>> such things from code
>> 
>> @Michael:
>> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
>> The guys at nextcloud have something like this:
>> 
>> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png 
>> 
>> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
>> directions in the web interface itself?
>> 
>> Greetings Jonatan
>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> -Michael
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
>>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
>>>>>> themes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links
>>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
>>>>>> ++++++++++++-------
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> 2.26.1
>>>>>> 
>> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 21/05/2020 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
>>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
>>> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
>>> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
>>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.
>> 
>> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
>> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.
>> 
>>> 
>>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
>>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
>>> that is technically difficult.
>> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
>> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
>> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
>> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
>> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.
>> 
>> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
>> technically
>> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
>> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
>> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
>> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
>> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
>> will have to read not more and not less.
>>> 
>>> I’ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
>>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
>>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
>>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
>>> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
>>> the same as IPFire).
>>> 
>>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
>>> well for me.
>>> 
>>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
>>> thing!
>>>>>>> From: Jon Murphy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
>>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org,
>>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oops…  maybe my bad?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
>>>>> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
>>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
>>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
>>>>> not helpful to anyone:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
>> 
>> 
>> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
>> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.
> 
> And maybe it will encourage people to add the missing pages? (I won't
> hold my breath on this one).

I would agree, but keeping my fingers crossed.

> 
>> 
>>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
>>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
>>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
>>>>> before they do something?
>> 
>> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
>> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
>> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
>> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
>> issue.
>> 
>> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
>> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
>> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
>> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
>> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
>> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
>> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.
>> 
>> So to sum up what I try to explain:
>> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
>> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
>> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
>> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
>> have some questions left.
>> 
>> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
>> such things from code
> 
> I've attached the screenshot.  I decided to just use a question mark
> since, to me, I thought that putting 'Help' implies having a menu
> underneath rather than a single help link.  I put a circle around it to
> make it a little more prominent, but that's handled in the stylesheet so
> both are easily changed.

I do not think this is the right place. It is not obvious that this changes with the page.

Therefore I would rather suggest to have it in the top right corner of the first big white box on the page.

> 
>> 
>> @Michael:
>> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
>> The guys at nextcloud have something like this:
>> 
>> 
> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png
> 
>> 
>> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
>> directions in the web interface itself?
> 
> I wonder whether putting a small font link or two in the standard wiki
> page header might help new users. I would clutter up the header, but it
> may be worth it, although as just clicking on the title takes you to the
> top of the wiki it shouldn't really make a difference.  Perhaps link the
> web site and community?

If we want to make things easy, we need to make sure that finding the wiki is easier than dropping a line on Community. We already have plenty of these useless posts and they are annoying and unhelpful to literally everybody.

-Michael

> 
> Tim
> 
>> 
>> Greetings Jonatan
>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> -Michael
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
>>>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>>>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>>>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
>>>>>>> themes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>>>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>>>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links
>>>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>>>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>>>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>>>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>>>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>>>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++-------
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>>>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> 2.26.1
>>>>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Screenshot_2020-05-21 testipfire - Status information.png
> <Screenshot_2020-05-21 testipfire - Status information.png>

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Tim FitzGeorge]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3151 bytes --]

All of these pages are in the menu definition files.  For the four I
starred there's no CGI file, so I think they're probably left overs that
should have been deleted, however the other ones have CGI files.  I
think these ones only get shown for certain configurations (e.g.
Modem/ATM status.

On 19/05/2020 21:20, Jon Murphy wrote:
> 
> My 2 cents below...
> 
> 
>> Status / VPN: Net-to-Net Statistics
> Need wiki page for this.
> 
> 
>> Firewall / Firewall Groups
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/firewall/fwgroups
> 
> 
>> Firewall / Blue Access
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/firewall/accesstoblue
> 
> 
>> Firewall / OpenVPN Roadwarrior connections log
> I did not see this in the IPFire WebGUI.  The only place I saw this was
> menu Logs > System Logs > Section: OpenVPN
> But I don’t think this is what you are referring to.
> 
> ---
> 
>> Status / Qos Graphs*
> I did not see "Status / QoS Graphs" in the IPFire WebGUI.  The only
> place I saw QoS Graphs was here:
> https://ipfire:444/cgi-bin/qos.cgi
> 
> And the only Help (though without graphs) is here:
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/services/qos
> 
> 
>> Status / Modem Status
> I did not see "Status / Modem Status" in the IPFire WebGUI.  I’m not
> sure I know what this is...
> 
> 
>> Status / Atm-status
> I did not see "Status / Atm-Status" in the IPFire WebGUI.  I’m not sure
> I know what this is...
> 
> 
>> Network / Network configuration*
> Is this the Zone Configuration?  I don’t think Zone Config is what you
> are referring to but I am not sure
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/network/zoneconf
> 
> 
>> Firewall / UPnP
> Is this "P2P networks"?
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/firewall/p2p-block
> 
> 
>> IPFire / Help*
> I’m not sure I know what is needed here…  Is this a new wiki page?
> 
> 
>> Log / Open VPN Log*
> Is a section specifically for OpenVPN Logs needed on this wiki page?
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/logs/system
> 
> ---
> 
>> Status / Entropy
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/status/entropy
> Need skilled help with this wiki page
> 
>> Status / Connections
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/status/connections
> Need skilled help with this wiki page
> 
>> Status / MDstat
> Need skilled help with this wiki page
> 
>> Network / URL Filter
> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/network/proxy/url-filter
> 
> 
>>
>> Actually, it's not too bad.  The only menu items (out of 72) in the core
>> that I couldn't find help for are:
>>
>> Status / VPN: Net-to-Net Statistics
>> Firewall / Firewall Groups
>> Firewall / Blue Access
>> Firewall / OpenVPN Roadwarrior connections log
>>
>> Status / Qos Graphs*
>> Status / Modem Status
>> Status / Atm-status
>> Network / Network configuration*
>> Firewall / UPnP
>> IPFire / Help*
>> Log / Open VPN Log*
>>
>> and at least four of those (*) don't appear to exist.  There might well
>> be pages for some of these which I didn't see when I was adding the links.
>> There are also four pages which obviously require further work:
>>
>> Status / Entropy
>> Status / Connections
>> Status / MDstat
>> Network / URL Filter
>>
> 
> 

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Jon Murphy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2537 bytes --]

Oops…  maybe my bad?


> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
> 
> Hi Tim,
> 
> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
> 
> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
> 
> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this not helpful to anyone:
> 
> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
> 
> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start before they do something?
> 
> What is your rationale to implementing this?
> 
> Best,
> -Michael
> 
>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' themes.
>> 
>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>> Help for GUI - Help links
>> Help for GUI - help link style
>> 
>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33 ++++++++++++-------
>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>> 
>> --
>> 2.26.1
>> 
> 
> 

[PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Tim FitzGeorge]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1220 bytes --]

Add per-page help link to GUI.
The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' themes.

Tim FitzGeorge (3):
  Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
  Help for GUI - Help links
  Help for GUI - help link style

 config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
 config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
 config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
 config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
 config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
 config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
 config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33 ++++++++++++-------
 config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
 config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
 config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
 config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
 config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
 config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
 html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
 html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)

--
2.26.1

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Michael Tremer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2048 bytes --]

Hi Tim,

Thank you very much for submitting these patches.

I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.

This has recently been discussed on the community portal and although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this not helpful to anyone:

* We do not have documentation for everything for a start
* There is never this “just read one sentence and you suddenly will be an expert” thing this kind of promotes

Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start before they do something?

What is your rationale to implementing this?

Best,
-Michael

> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> Add per-page help link to GUI.
> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' themes.
> 
> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>  Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>  Help for GUI - Help links
>  Help for GUI - help link style
> 
> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33 ++++++++++++-------
> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
> 
> --
> 2.26.1
> 

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Tim FitzGeorge]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2762 bytes --]

Hi Michael,

On 16/05/2020 10:35, Michael Tremer wrote:
> Hi Tim,
>
> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>
> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>
> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and although
I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this not helpful to
anyone:
>
> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start

Actually, it's not too bad.  The only menu items (out of 72) in the core
that I couldn't find help for are:

Status / VPN: Net-to-Net Statistics
Firewall / Firewall Groups
Firewall / Blue Access
Firewall / OpenVPN Roadwarrior connections log

Status / Qos Graphs			*
Status / Modem Status
Status / Atm-status
Network / Network configuration		*
Firewall / UPnP
IPFire / Help				*
Log / Open VPN Log			*

and at least four of those (*) don't appear to exist.  There might well
be pages for some of these which I didn't see when I was adding the links.
There are also four pages which obviously require further work:

Status / Entropy
Status / Connections
Status / MDstat
Network / URL Filter

> * There is never this “just read one sentence and you suddenly will be
an expert” thing this kind of promotes
>
True.  But in the extreme this could be argued to say that IPFire
shouldn't provide any information in the wiki unless it's much more
detailed than the current wiki.  Where do you draw the line?


> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start before
they do something?

I think the best place for this is either on the download page or in the
installer, so they get prompted to read the wiki before they start playing.

I suspect putting a link in the footer wouldn't help many people.  If
they can't find the wiki on the website they're probably not going to
find it in the GUI footer.

>
> What is your rationale to implementing this?

I was following the discussion in the community, and several people
seemed to be in favour of the idea. And to quote 'This suggestion has
been made plenty of times. I would be happy to accept patches, but so
far nobody wanted to work on it.'

So I submitted the patches.

I understand that there are two sides to the argument.  Having the wiki
pages linked as help will be beneficial to some people and will just get
other people into a mess quicker when they try to do something they
don't understand - but having a link to the wiki page may help some of
this latter group to realise that they don't understand and need to
learn more.

Which is going to be of most benefit to most people?  I think for me,
having the help links would be preferable, but that's for me, with my
skill set and personality.

Tim

>
> Best,
> -Michael
>

Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Michael Tremer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4489 bytes --]

Hi,

> On 18 May 2020, at 21:18, Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> On 16/05/2020 10:35, Michael Tremer wrote:
>> Hi Tim,
>> 
>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>> 
>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>> 
>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and although
> I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this not helpful to
> anyone:
>> 
>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
> 
> Actually, it's not too bad.  The only menu items (out of 72) in the core
> that I couldn't find help for are:
> 
> Status / VPN: Net-to-Net Statistics
> Firewall / Firewall Groups
> Firewall / Blue Access
> Firewall / OpenVPN Roadwarrior connections log
> 
> Status / Qos Graphs			*
> Status / Modem Status
> Status / Atm-status
> Network / Network configuration		*
> Firewall / UPnP
> IPFire / Help				*
> Log / Open VPN Log			*
> 
> and at least four of those (*) don't appear to exist.  There might well
> be pages for some of these which I didn't see when I was adding the links.
> There are also four pages which obviously require further work:
> 
> Status / Entropy
> Status / Connections
> Status / MDstat
> Network / URL Filter
> 
>> * There is never this “just read one sentence and you suddenly will be
> an expert” thing this kind of promotes
>> 
> True.  But in the extreme this could be argued to say that IPFire
> shouldn't provide any information in the wiki unless it's much more
> detailed than the current wiki.  Where do you draw the line?

Yeah, I suppose I give up this argument.

*Some* documentation is better than nothing and people who generally know what they are doing will probably benefit.

>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start before
> they do something?
> 
> I think the best place for this is either on the download page or in the
> installer, so they get prompted to read the wiki before they start playing.

I suppose nobody reads the manual before they buy anything.

I also do not want to scare anyone away by claiming that IPFire is “for experts only”. It isn’t.

> 
> I suspect putting a link in the footer wouldn't help many people.  If
> they can't find the wiki on the website they're probably not going to
> find it in the GUI footer.

I still cannot my head around it why this is a problem.

We have search that will find the right page, if you put in the keyword that you will find on top of the page you are currently looking at.

And the wiki has exactly the same hierarchy than the web UI. How can this go wrong?

>> 
>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
> 
> I was following the discussion in the community, and several people
> seemed to be in favour of the idea. And to quote 'This suggestion has
> been made plenty of times. I would be happy to accept patches, but so
> far nobody wanted to work on it.'
> 
> So I submitted the patches.

I appreciate it, but it would have been nice if we could have had the discussion first and come to a conclusion that everyone can live with.

Plenty of people have commented on this. There have been some further threads on the topic - or rather slight spin-offs - and suddenly there was absolute silence. I do not value the opinion of people very much when they only have that to give and are not willing to put any leg work in.

In this case: Everyone wants better documentation, but only one(!) person is actually editing it and improving it gradually. It is absolutely not okay for a group of 10 people to tell that one person what they expect them to do.

Therefore I personally feel that we are quite far away from what we can actually do here.

-Michael

> I understand that there are two sides to the argument.  Having the wiki
> pages linked as help will be beneficial to some people and will just get
> other people into a mess quicker when they try to do something they
> don't understand - but having a link to the wiki page may help some of
> this latter group to realise that they don't understand and need to
> learn more.
> 
> Which is going to be of most benefit to most people?  I think for me,
> having the help links would be preferable, but that's for me, with my
> skill set and personality.
> 
> Tim
> 
>> 
>> Best,
>> -Michael
>> 
>