From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: Migrating our IPFire Forum to Discourse Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:33:15 +0000 Message-ID: <45A079FB-854F-45F4-BDCF-7B3811B557EC@ipfire.org> In-Reply-To: <9566f0e84a0d45d0fd32524c3740d2780d1f62ef.camel@ipfire.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3981738045181834361==" List-Id: --===============3981738045181834361== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, > On 30 Oct 2019, at 17:03, ummeegge wrote: >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > On Di, 2019-10-29 at 00:24 +0000, Michael Tremer wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >>> On 28 Oct 2019, at 22:21, ummeegge wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Michael, >>>=20 >>> On Mo, 2019-10-28 at 09:50 +0000, Michael Tremer wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you for your feedback :) >>>=20 >>> your welcome :-) . >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On 26 Oct 2019, at 05:33, ummeegge wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Michael, >>>>> great work and nice to see the new infrastructure is growing >>>>> also >>>>> with >>>>> new tools for the community and to bring the whole new >>>>> environment >>>>> closer to another. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Wanted to give some thoughts, ideas and questions in here. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, the new infrastructure performs a lot better and we have >>>> spent >>>> so much time on it and built so much automation into it that we >>>> are >>>> now really saving a lot of time. >>>=20 >>> Great to hear! >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> But it is a thing that is never finished and so we will always >>>> update >>>> it and add new things :) >>>=20 >>> Business as usual :-) . >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Do, 2019-10-24 at 10:36 +0100, Michael Tremer wrote: >>>>>> Hello guys, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> All services that we have (Bugzilla, Patchwork, Wiki, etc.) >>>>>> are >>>>>> already connected to it. What was missing is the forum. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It might be an idea to line the other platforms out or set >>>>> links to >>>>> them in the forum. Several bug reports but also reguests to >>>>> integrate >>>>> community development comes to the forum and needed to be >>>>> redirected to >>>>> the appropriate sections. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> What is going to happen next? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Since this milestone was taken now, we are ready to start our >>>>>> migration to Discourse. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Is there a ~date for this ? >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, I hope that we will be able to launch this next Monday, 4th >>>> Nov >>>> during our usual telephone conference. I will send invites for a >>>> little launch party :) >>>=20 >>> Sound is good :D >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> The new forum is called =E2=80=9CIPFire Community=E2=80=9D, because I >>>>>> consider >>>>>> the >>>>>> word forum to be a little bit dated. I have also done some >>>>>> changes to >>>>>> how it works: There will be no German section any more, >>>>>> because >>>>>> that >>>>>> was always a bad idea and has to go. I would like you to help >>>>>> me >>>>>> to >>>>>> police that as best as we can. Then, I removed the >>>>>> =E2=80=9Cdevelopment=E2=80=9D >>>>>> area, because I believe that we do not need to have this on >>>>>> here >>>>>> at >>>>>> all. We have mailing lists for devlopment, bugs should be >>>>>> reported in >>>>>> Bugzilla, etc. I would like to separate those two things. The >>>>>> =E2=80=9Cconfiguration=E2=80=9D section is also gone, because pretty m= uch >>>>>> everything >>>>>> on the forum is about how to configure something. It was a >>>>>> non- >>>>>> category. Now, I have split this into networking issues with >>>>>> some >>>>>> sub-sections for larger topics like QoS, Web Proxy and WiFi. >>>>>> There is >>>>>> a security section for IPS, Firewall Rules, etc. I considered >>>>>> VPNs to >>>>>> be important enough to have their own category. Mainly to be >>>>>> able >>>>>> to >>>>>> split it into OpenVPN & IPsec, too. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regarding the dropped development section, we did there a lot >>>>> of >>>>> testings in the community with regular users but always only a >>>>> few >>>>> developers this was a kind of neat since mostly developers do >>>>> not >>>>> have >>>>> the time to test other stuff (which was in first place my >>>>> experiences >>>>> on the mailinglist) but also another focus/insight to the >>>>> system. >>>>> The >>>>> help of the community was there ideal, also reagrding for new >>>>> features >>>>> or further developments in a project since there was a feedback >>>>> to >>>>> those where all that should belong to at the end. >>>>> This was a kind of filter system before patches and new >>>>> developments >>>>> was send to the mailinglist which saved at the end also time in >>>>> finding >>>>> bugs but also for explanation since there was mostly also a >>>>> reference >>>>> to look for not only for the core developer but also for the >>>>> community >>>>> after the changes has been released and it was not only a four >>>>> eyes >>>>> principal but a multiple eye quality management possible. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, I agree. This is not ideal that this is gone and agree with >>>> what >>>> you are saying. >>>>=20 >>>> However, I believe that this =E2=80=9Cparallel project=E2=80=9D is worse. >>>>=20 >>>> In the past, there have been loads of bugs been reported to the >>>> forum >>>> somewhere. Very often even in a post and not even an extra >>>> thread. >>>> Nobody has seen those, investigated them and most importantly >>>> nobody >>>> fixed them. A forum does not track those reports even - at all. >>>=20 >>> This is very understandable and have seen it and tried to redirect >>> it >>> also many many times. For that, my idea to outline Bugzilla, the >>> mailnglists etc. easy to find also in discourse since the community >>> portal is mostly the first address (but very often the last one) >>> where >>> people belongs to. >>=20 >> That is why it is important that we create an open community where >> everyone feels welcome and where people don=E2=80=99t hesitate to ask >> beginner questions - although I expect them to do their research. >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think IPFire could be a lot better because those small bugs >>>> which >>>> they usually are make the user experience a little bit shit. They >>>> are >>>> nasty problems, but they are not bad enough that someone really >>>> tries >>>> to have them fixed. So we need to channel them into the bug >>>> tracker. >>>=20 >>> This might be an important step if there is a easy way for the >>> regular >>> user to find this opportunity but to report it also understandable >>> to >>> prevent a forum discussion on bugzilla e.g. the rules of "how-to- >>> write- >>> a-good-bug-report" needs then also to be know. Is there a way to >>> line >>> this also out via discourse ? >>=20 >> Why is it not enough when this is on the wiki? > It is enough but it might be difficult to find since the wiki is > comprehensive. This should not be a big entry in discourse but may a > link with a short description e.g. in the community section as a > "naviagtion" topic or so. You are assuming that this page is the first where people land on. It is not. www.ipfire.org is and it has references to everywhere. In a struct= ured way, you can get to anywhere from there. Discourse serves a different purpose. It is not the Google in the project and= when someone lands there, they need to go back to a search engine and go fro= m there. This is a bit like trying to reference every single forum post from = the wiki which does not make sense to me. >> How would people find this in the depth of a forum? The wiki is a >> much better place to be a compendium on how to submit patches and how >> to get started... > It can be pinned like the "About the Community category" as a first > idea. We need to edit these posts, because they are there for that reason. However, there is no development section and therefore I do not know where to= put this. I am sure that this can be found somewhere. When I search for =E2=80=9Cipfire contribute=E2=80=9D on Google, this is my f= irst result: https://blog.ipfire.org/post/how-to-become-a-contributor-to-ipfi= re I think that says it all. If people cannot Google, I do not know how to help = them. >=20 >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Do I want people to publicly debug their problems somewhere on >>>> the >>>> devel mailing list? Do I want people to dump a half-baked bug >>>> report >>>> there? No. Absolutely not. I regard the development mailing list >>>> a >>>> little bit like an office. There has to be enough information >>>> flow >>>> that everyone knows what it is going on, but when everyone is >>>> sitting >>>> at their desks, there needs to be enough quietness to be able to >>>> concentrate on something. For example: If we have 100 emails on >>>> there >>>> a day, nobody will be able to do any coding because we are all >>>> busy >>>> with reading emails. >>>=20 >>> This is exactly my concern above. There do not need to be a >>> developer >>> section in discourse for this, i think mostly problems would come >>> nevertheless in the appropriate sections in the, should i say, >>> "community platform" (sounds still a little wierd ;). The >>> development >>> section quota in the old Forum were mostly feature request and in >>> second place development topics sometimes with the appeal for help. >>=20 >> Why does =E2=80=9CCommunity Portal=E2=80=9D sound weird to you? > Some years now are past and i always called it "Forum" ;-). Yeah I call it forum, too :) >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> So it all has upsides and downsides. >>>>=20 >>>> I would vote for trying it this way now and move people to the >>>> mailing list and bugtracker and teach them how to use those >>>> tools. I >>>> think this is key. Many people learned from GitHub that you just >>>> throw some information around. A bug, a pull request. And then >>>> someone will hopefully handle it. That is not what I want. We all >>>> should be playing a small role in this, but nobody should be >>>> doing >>>> this as an almost full-time job. >>>=20 >>> This can be huge in some cases. All the other platforms have a kind >>> of >>> specific handling to use them as an appropriate tool for both >>> sides. Am >>> currently not 100% sure how to reach also users with not that much >>> experience (which is daliy business for others). But may i am wrong >>> with my concerns in that manner and all will be go by the time it=C2=B4s >>> way... >>=20 >> It might. And then we have to see it and change things, but I suppose >> that we cannot foretell the future at this point. This is an attempt >> to change things and there is always upsides and downsides. >>=20 >> Ultimately I do not expect to lose anyone who wants to report a bug. >> An account is easy to create. Sending an email to the mailing list is >> not rocket science. There was someone very recently unable to send an >> email. If you cannot do that, how can you produce good >> patches? >>=20 >> I think GitHub makes it too easy to throw patches at a project and >> what is the use of that? >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> We have a development area on the wiki:=20 >>>> https://wiki.ipfire.org/devel >>>>=20 >>>> How is that as a general guide for people to know when and where >>>> to >>>> report things? >>>=20 >>> This guide is great but you will need people on the other side >>> which >>> are a little deeper in that dev topic. I can imagine in some cases >>> that >>> the obstacle is to high to report also the small things which makes >>> in >>> the sum "user experience a little bit shit". >>=20 >> The obstacle must be high, because I expect people to spend some time >> on figuring out why something isn=E2=80=99t working. >>=20 >> We had loads of reports that said =E2=80=9Cthis does not work any more. >> Please fix=E2=80=9D. There is nothing that can be done when there is no >> information and it is a waste of time to ask every bug reporter about >> logs and this and that. They need to collect all the information they >> have and then report the bug. That is how a bug tracker works. >>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Do you think that we will lose debate with this approach? I >>>> believe >>>> that we already have enough places to developers to chat, users >>>> to >>>> put forward their suggestions=E2=80=A6 It is all there and we do not need >>>> the >>>> forum. >>>=20 >>> I can not really forsee it, generaly spoken the resonance was >>> different >>> on both platforms (dev and community) and in different ways very >>> usable. My concern is that the development part in the community >>> will >>> lose debate at a first glance, which does not mean it will come >>> again=20 >>> possibly then in another, may better, way ? There comes a lot of >>> changes with this (other language, stricter guidelines with >>> more/other >>> platforms to use). >>=20 >> I do not think it does. Most of us were not involved in any debate on >> the forum and that is a problem. > Do you think this will change with Discourse ? Yes, I think this will change, because Discourse sends out emails if you enab= le that and you can configure receiving notifications on certain events. If p= eople are interested, then they will miss less stuff. People who are not interested and do not engage in the project will of course= not be involved in any discussion. But I think that is the right thing. Peop= le who only have an account with us should not have much to say on where the = project is going. People who are taking part on a daily basis should be part = of this. >> We have to places where we need to bring people together from. >>=20 >> Stricter guidelines are just necessary because the community is >> growing. It is like a room full of people. Easy to keep order with >> two, but a thousand people in a room make a lot of noise and everyone >> does what they want to do. That is why we need rules and that is why >> we need to make sure that people follow them. >>=20 >>>> Which does not mean by the way that a VPN problem cannot be >>>> talked >>>> about in the VPN section. I think this is even better than >>>> posting >>>> everything into =E2=80=9Cdevelopment=E2=80=9D, because isn=E2=80=99t it = all development? >>>=20 >>> Yes in a way it is :D. So why not trying it in that way, may i see >>> it >>> all a little too problematic... >>=20 >> Because it is a support forum. Do not attempt to use it as a devel >> platform :) > :-) yeah may it=C2=B4s that. >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> I can understand that you want to prevent a kind of parallel >>>>> project >>>>> development but this is only one side of the whole in my >>>>> opinion. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> The challenges ahead >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The whole migration is risky, we all need to do our best to >>>>>> keep >>>>>> the >>>>>> conversation going and invite people over. Blocking access to >>>>>> the >>>>>> old >>>>>> forum will probably make people rather angry than anything >>>>>> else. >>>>>> This >>>>>> has to happen, sooner rather than later, but we should try to >>>>>> make it >>>>>> as smooth as possible. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I think so, especially a english only platform will be a >>>>> problem >>>>> for a >>>>> lot of people not sure where this leads to. >>>>=20 >>>> Yes, but we have talked about this 1000 times before. The motion >>>> was >>>> put forward, a conversation was being had over weeks and a >>>> decision >>>> was made. There were no objections that were valid enough to >>>> change >>>> the mind of the group. >>>>=20 >>>> I hope that we will be all very disciplined about this and help >>>> other >>>> people to follow this rule. >>>=20 >>> Let=C2=B4s try it. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>> There will also be the problem to fight spam accounts, which >>>>>> we >>>>>> now >>>>>> have to implement ourselves. We will have to see how this >>>>>> goes, >>>>>> but I >>>>>> cannot imagine this being even worse than what we have right >>>>>> now >>>>>> with >>>>>> our forum. >>>>>=20 >>>>> This is a main problem i think since ecspecially in the last >>>>> weeks/months there needed to be deleted several thousands of >>>>> spam >>>>> accounts in only a few days in the forum. This problem have the >>>>> potential for an own employment if there is no good automated >>>>> first >>>>> line of defense and even if, there needs to be more then one or >>>>> two >>>>> people which regularily checks the posts but also >>>>> irregularities in >>>>> the >>>>> registrations but this might be then a people.ipfire.org >>>>> problem >>>>> and >>>>> have not that much to do with the administartion of the >>>>> community >>>>> platform ?! >>>>=20 >>>> Would it make sense to have some notifications being sent to a >>>> group >>>> of moderators that will then delete an account if it looks >>>> suspicious? What makes an account suspicious? We only have a >>>> name, an >>>> email address and potentially an IP address. All of this does not >>>> really tell you if someone is a spammer, or does it? >>>=20 >>> In 80% it does. Names like e.g.: >>>=20 >>> =C2=BB RonaldSat, Bonnieeromi, AndrewIrork, charmdateoqd, charmdateevf, >>> Michaelweept, charmdatezyu, EdytheJ3, Brettthire, KiaSuisy, >>> charmdatebsy, charmdatejxa, charmdatekmz, Shaneinhix, charmdateubr, >>> MiaSuisy, charmdatehqy, hydrskymn, Kevinlof, charmdatetlc, >>> uaserialprofi, AnnaSuisy, Fannieexime, charmdatehdx, RonnieSadly, >>> KimSuisy, Sloche, NickSuisy, CalvinRiz, charmdatevly, oxacejuhedux, >>> Rodneybup, charmdateqji, RobertDaw, charmdatentt, charmdateitt, >>> EvaSuisy, charmdategjj, charmdateanu, Yqlrxya, JudySuisy, >>> CarlSuisy, >>> CharlesSuisy, MilanRoy, RamonVuple, charmdateaoe, charmdatepod, >>> AmySuisy, charmdatejbl, Serieszpl, charmdatefxd, TedSuisy, >>> charmdateykm, charmdaternl, BillyDar, DennisEvall, charmdatebtj, >>> charmdatenpi, SueSuisy, charmdatevyu, AlanSuisy, KennethRek, >>> WarrenDyews, charmdateuod, Annden, JaneSuisy, FrankDrifs, KeithTup, >>> charmdateesg, EyeSuisy, Walterhew, AndrewUnure, Bennygoacy, >>> MarySuisy, >>> charmdatevfa, charmdatezeg, JackSuisy, MarkSuisy, EmmittMix, >>> charmdateibc, Stewartbig, Rafonamvar=20 >>=20 >> Yes, those looks not okay, but how can an piece of code find this? > Might it makes sense to make some steps into the whole blacklist world, > have wrote sometime ago about DNSBL in combination with firehol e.g. -- >> https://github.com/firehol/firehol/wiki/dnsbl-ipset.sh but also to > check for some good lists at all ? May the first time where the forum > and the comunity portal are usable might be a good time for some > hardcore tests in that topic ? What do you think about that ? We deployed DNS blacklists on the web app for some time now and removed it ag= ain bit by bit. There are just too many false-positives and developers cannot really log in a= ny more. We have some rate-limiting going on and we will have to see how that works. >=20 >>=20 >>> can cleary be launched. Not sure how clear is this for others but >>> after >>> a little while it gets clearer and clearer 8-\ ... but in such >>> cases it >>> won=C2=B4t make sense to clean this garbage (sorry for that may a bot >>> might >>> have also feelings :) by a moderator group cause stay ready for >>> thousands of them (hint --> phpBB inactive users). It would >>> nevertheless make sense to send notifications to a moderator group >>> to >>> check the cleaned up rest since the rest of the ~ 20% comes >>> nevertheless into which left interesting links to unintersting >>> sides >>> (viagra and such). Last but not least, to prevent camouflaged >>> advertising a check of posts needs also to be done... there is >>> more. >>>=20 >>> In short, a moderator group is great but the daily business is more >>> then only moderate. >>=20 >> I set up a moderator group on LDAP and I will send a separate email >> about it tomorrow. >>=20 >> You are in it. We need you :) > Will be there :-) . Great! >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Some thoughts from here. >>>>=20 >>>> Greatly appreciated. Looking forward to hear your answers to my >>>> questions. >>>=20 >>> Hope there are some usable things in it. Am happy but also tensed >>> with >>> the new upcoming changes :-) >>=20 >> Always. See? Mailing lists work for conversations=E2=80=A6 > They does. :) -Michael >=20 >>=20 >> Who says email is dead? >>=20 >> Good night, >> -Michael >=20 > Best, >=20 > Erik >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Best, >>>> -Michael >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Erik --===============3981738045181834361==--