From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Jon Murphy To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2020 19:05:50 -0500 Message-ID: <6050ABAD-F0DC-4D5C-81EA-5639333B596E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4836324045713346950==" List-Id: --===============4836324045713346950== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where did this end up? Is it OK to move forward? I don't mind creating wiki pages for the missing items if someone can point o= ut what needs to be created. Jon >=20 > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:19:48 +0100 > From: Michael Tremer > To: Jonatan Schlag > Cc: Jon Murphy , "IPFire: Development-List" > > Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >=20 > Hey, >=20 >> On 21 May 2020, at 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wro= te: >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >>=20 >> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy: >>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them >>> pointed in the right direction. This is much better than a new user >>> firing off a quick question to the Community. Most anything that is >>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing. >>=20 >>=20 >> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to >> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the >>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?). Especially reading something >>> that is technically difficult. >>=20 >> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the >> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn >> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should >> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is >> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself. >=20 > I suggested that. People cannot start somewhere in the middle. >=20 > You will have to learn how to set up a network somewhere from the start. Ir= oning out mistakes is getting more difficult the larger it grows. Plenty of c= ompanies therefore struggle with their technological debt. >=20 > I am not suggesting that reading our wiki will prevent you from making thos= e mistakes, but it is at least a place where you will learn how to avoid maki= ng some of them. And that won?t fit into only a single paragraph. >=20 >> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is >> technically >> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid >> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read. >> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the >> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets >> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They >> will have to read not more and not less. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I?ll use myself as an example. Right now I am trying to learn a >>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX. I tried reading various >>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head. So I try a >>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try >>> some thing than rinse & repeat. (And Yes I realize asterisks is not >>> the same as IPFire). =20 >=20 > This is a completely different thing though. >=20 > I sometimes bake things. Literally nothing can go wrong there. It is not da= ngerous, it won?t cost me a fortune when I lose customer data (as a company) = and so on. >=20 > Security is so invisible and so difficult to understand for many and that i= s what makes the difference for me. >=20 >>>=20 >>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago. It works very >>> well for me. >>>=20 >>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good >>> thing! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> From: Jon Murphy >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM >>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org,=20 >>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Oops? maybe my bad? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>=20 >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100 >>>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge >>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and >>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this >>>>> not helpful to anyone: >>>>>=20 >>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start >>=20 >>=20 >> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to >> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%. >>=20 >>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly >>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes >>>>>=20 >>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and >>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start >>>>> before they do something? >>=20 >> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then >> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need >> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When >> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this >> issue. >>=20 >> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry >> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and >> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability >> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people >> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand >> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or >> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever. >>=20 >> So to sum up what I try to explain: >> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of >> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a >> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people, >> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still >> have some questions left. >>=20 >> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine >> such things from code >>=20 >> @Michael: >> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer. >> The guys at nextcloud have something like this: >>=20 >> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-1= 1e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png=20 >>=20 >> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right >> directions in the web interface itself? >=20 > Yes, we could do something like this. >=20 > -Michael >=20 >>=20 >> Greetings Jonatan >>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best, >>>>> -Michael >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge < >>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI. >>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu. >>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' >>>>>> themes. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3): >>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code >>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links >>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu | 11 +++++++ >>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu | 13 ++++++++ >>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu | 20 +++++++++-- >>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu | 6 ++++ >>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu | 8 ++++- >>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu | 33 >>>>>> ++++++++++++------- >>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu | 1 + >>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css | 8 +++++ >>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl | 19 +++++++++-- >>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> 2.26.1 >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============4836324045713346950==--