From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Adolf Belka To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: I am taking a little break Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 18:54:55 +0100 Message-ID: <7bee40ca-5c84-1770-132c-b4ec151f65ca@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7824235348763856798==" List-Id: --===============7824235348763856798== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On 12/01/2021 16:40, Michael Tremer wrote: > Hello, >=20 >> On 11 Jan 2021, at 18:08, Adolf Belka wrote: >> >> Hallo all, >> >> Unfortunately I think this is a reflection of how our society has been goi= ng in the last 4 years. >> I think they are the minority but they are very vocal and so make a lot of= noise that gets felt. >=20 > This is definitely an argument I use to explain a lot of the problems that = we are all facing in our public lives. But I wasn=E2=80=99t sure if I wasn=E2= =80=99t making this all up in the =E2=80=9Cif you only have a hammer, every p= roblem looks like a nail=E2=80=9D kind of sense. >=20 >> For people who just vent into the forum, I believe that their post should = be closed or deleted and if the same behaviour is repeated several times then= maybe their account should be deleted. The Arch Linux forum implemented that= approach some time ago and you rarely see posts like that now. They are quic= kly closed or deleted. >=20 > Okay, let=E2=80=99s do that. For some it is very easy, but some other posts= are border-line. What do we do then? For borderline or Not sure situations then I would give them the benefit of t= he doubt. Things will either cool down or blow up again. >=20 >> Also if people post with a "I updated and now nothing works" they should b= e pointed to somewhere that gives guidance on the sort of information that is= required when posting. >=20 > There used to be a time when this almost always was hardware and I wrote th= e hardware myths busters section on the wiki. Maybe it would be a good idea t= o add a page that simply lists a couple of easy but effective trouble shootin= g things. >=20 > Very often hardware simply dies when being rebooted. Other times people sim= ply played with their system or reboot during the update process. It rarely i= s anything that we got wrong in the updater. >=20 >> Arch Linux follow that approach and people who don't offer specifics on th= e commands used or the error messages from the logs etc get quickly directed = to the Arch Forum Rules and the Newbie guide to posting. They have these as p= inned posts in their Newbie category in the forum. The forum population now o= ften inform a poster that he needs to provide more information or point them = at the rules. It is no longer just the moderators. >=20 > Yes, that would be brilliant. I am just afraid that we would have many post= s that simply are just that: A post, a response with a link to the guidelines= and that is it - no further response. I guess it is an option to delete them= after a while of inactivity. I would say just leave them. To close or delete them after some time period m= eans that the moderators have to scan through all posts to find ones that are= very old. (unless the forum system has a script that can provide which threa= ds are older than a certain age. Arch Linux also have posts which are only a = couple of entries where someone was asked to go read the rules and they never= came back. They leave them open. >=20 >> I think we need to think about more overtly thanking the community people = who have successfully helped someone. The like heart is there and is used but= maybe we also need to do something like an occasional thank you message in a= thread for. >=20 > I click the like buttons a lot and I thought people would notice. Having thought further about it I think you are right. The Community Forum al= lows you to get notifications of the likes and notifications can be emailed o= r shown up when you login. I have used the like button where I thought it was= appropriate and I have had some of my posts liked as well. >=20 >> I suspect that whatever we do there will still be people who act with the = wrong behaviour. I think that we need to remind ourselves that the problem is= not ours it is theirs and we need to calm down and do something different fo= r a while. For me, walking my dog or going mountain biking help to get me bac= k to a calmer frame of mind. >=20 > One in a hundred is fine. People do not always get along. But sometimes it = feels like it is the vast majority. Maybe my frustration was taking over, but= it felt too much like the same post again and again and again. >=20 >> I also had a quick scan through parts of another firewall forum and they a= lso have a similar set of forum questions to what we see. There was a post ab= out installing their firewall and download speed being reduced by 80%, There = were some with very little information provided. So I think it is not a probl= em unique to IPFire. >=20 > You are right; it seems to be a general problem. That helps me to not fall = into despair about it. And it is very good to openly talk about these things = with you guys :) >=20 > -Michael >=20 >> Regards, >> Adolf. >> >> >> On 11/01/2021 15:28, Michael Tremer wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> Thank you everyone for your kind words on this matter. I appreciate it ve= ry much, although I didn=E2=80=99t know how to respond back then. >>>> On 26 Nov 2020, at 03:47, Jon Murphy wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Michael, >>>> >>>> Sorry for the late reply to your note. I've been sick the past few days= and sleeping too much. All is good now. >>>> >>>> Sorry for what you are going through. It really takes the joy out of wo= rking especially when working at something you love. Nobody should ever be s= ubject to this abuse. >>> Luckily, absuse has somewhat disappeared recently. I am getting rather ki= nd emails from users or people send me a nice email and said why they donated= a couple of bucks to the project. That feels really nice. >>>> I completely agree with taking a step aside. Take whatever time is need= ed. You definitely deserve the time off! >>> Yes, many people told me that they can absolutely understand my - rather = confusing - reasoning, because they have considered the same. Various people = are popping in and out of the forum and are usually leaving with a feeling of= disappointment. >>> I do not want that. >>> I want our community to be a nice one. Although this is not the lounge of= the Internet and people come here to solve a problem, there is no need that = this cannot be done in a nice way. >>> Two months ago, I was considering to simply shut down the community porta= l. It has been a pain point for a long time, and the transition from the old = software to Discourse has not really helped too much. I do not know really wh= at I expected but at least a change in dynamic. >>>> I would suggest never fully reading the nasty messages. Find a nasty pa= rt - hit the delete key! It won't give you any insight to their problem and = it isn't worth your time. And it will definitely bring you down. >>> As I heard, more messages have been deleted without any further ado. Has = that helped? I do not know. Did anyone notice change? >>>> After the November holiday I'll reach out to the Community moderations. = I have a few thoughts and suggestions of ways to make this better: (e.g., wa= tchlist / sh**list of bad apples, flagging sh** messages ). It'll probably t= ake 100 little things that'll make the difference. >>>> >>>> Side thought: I use Apple Mail and SpamSieve. Maybe you can set its co= rpus up with nasty words (e.g., arsehole) from nasty messages. Trash anythin= g nasty before reading it! The delete key is your friend! >>> People don=E2=80=99t use nasty language. After all, I am German and that = language is a lot filthier than English. We say things as they are, and that = is not really what is bothering me. >>> What is bothering me more is that people are wasting my time, because I a= m not really convinced that they are hoping to get their problem fixed with e= mails like this. They want to vent. Maybe it is a sign of the times that they= cannot do it elsewhere, and maybe we are simply the first victim that they r= andomly find. It does=E2=80=99t really matter. >>> One of the recent public examples would be this tweet: https://twitter.co= m/BaatorianPrince/status/1344704180913627141 >>> =E2=80=9CNothing works=E2=80=9D. Well, I am glad for you that you found b= etter software. This software works absolutely fine for me. >>>> Hope you are able to get out and do something different! >>> The pandemic does not really help with this, but I found some time to do = something different :) >>> But now, I would like to talk about how we can fix this. The other day, w= e got a message from another person who said that they gave up on the Communi= ty Portal and I cannot accept that. Me not being a leading example here, it i= s not what I want. >>> It is not a requirement in the project to read every single post on there= , and of course I cannot and do not want to force anyone to do things they do= not enjoy. >>> But if we want to keep the Community alive, we all need to engage with it= in some way. >>> So I am here to ask for ideas on how we can achieve this? I would like to= have a conversation about what is going wrong (are we doing something wrong = or is it just the same everywhere else) and what we can do about it. >>> To me, engaging with the community is essential to good development and u= ltimately to the success of the project. Right now, it does not give a very g= ood image of us and what are all doing. >>> How can we fix this? >>> Best, >>> -Michael >>>> >>>> Take care! >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Message: 2 >>>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:17:32 +0000 >>>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>>> To: "IPFire: Development-List" >>>>> Subject: I am taking a little break >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>> >>>>> Hello everyone, >>>>> >>>>> I would like to announce that I am taking a hiatus from the support for= um on community.ipfire.org. >>>>> >>>>> The main reason is not new, but I thought that it has been enough in th= e last few weeks: The amount of abuse I receive is unreasonable. It comes in = personal messages, emails and on public forums and are often quite personal. >>>>> >>>>> I do not want to give any examples, because those people do not deserve= that their message is being singled out. There is no incident in particular = that has caused me frustration, but you all have seen what is being posted pu= blicly and that is good enough to work as a foundation to what I would like t= o point out... >>>>> >>>>> We have a bit of a problem with our discourse. People have an entitleme= nt problem, put no work into their posts and expect - or even demand - people= to do their job for them. >>>>> >>>>> I feel that reading those posts and writing a response which is not bei= ng read by the original poster (let alone them trying to implement what I sug= gested) is a waste of time. Of course it is up to them, but why would you ask= in the first place? Usually the problem is that it was not understood what I= answered. >>>>> >>>>> Who would have thought that IT security is hard? >>>>> >>>>> I am tired of trying to educate people about the most basic things that= are required to run IPFire. I am sick and tired of seeing IPFire being used = wrong and therefore people complaining about things that do not work as they = want them. I feel like I am explaining the same things over and over again. >>>>> >>>>> I am done with having endless debates about the same topics which are d= one already. Different people bring up the same arguments again but that does= not change anything. They complain when not being answered in length when th= ey are just too lazy to search for the answer in a previous post. >>>>> >>>>> I am being very frustrated and this is not good for neither me or the c= ommunity. >>>>> >>>>> Not coming across as my finest recently I believe that I am starting to= act unfairly towards people who have not done anything wrong and try to make= a difference in this project. It will be better if I invested my time into t= hose things than those outlined above. >>>>> >>>>> Closing the forum entirely was a thought that crossed my mind many more= times than once - and I know that I am not the online one who is thinking th= at. It was in fact debated on our monthly team meeting before. >>>>> >>>>> I do not care about the offenders and bullies at all. Trolls are gonna = troll. There is only very little chance to point someone into the right direc= tion and help them to help themselves. I would rather prefer to have a smalle= r user base instead of having these people who are destroying the community -= willingly or unwillingly. >>>>> >>>>> We are an open source project - one community. I do care a lot about th= at - and I would not allow anyone to destroy what we have all achieved togeth= er. It is sad to say, that it only needs very few people to spoil it for the = rest of us. >>>>> >>>>> My personal pride aside, those who know me in person can tell you that = I do not care much about any defamation towards me, or accusations, blame or = being called an arsehole. But I do know for a fact that others take them less= lightly. >>>>> >>>>> Some things recently have stopped being fun and are now quite the oppos= ite. To avoid ruining mine and other people?s days I have decided to stop rea= ding and replying on the support forum. I am not contributing anything useful= for anyone and it has not given me any input that will help me to do my job = better. This won?t be a big loss to anyone. >>>>> >>>>> I would even encourage the rest of you who feel passionate about it hel= p to make that place useful again. It is the only place that we have where ou= r community can be. >>>>> >>>>> This announcement is just there to let you all know that my perception = of the project might vary from yours in the near future. I will of course be = around on the development mailing list and get involved in the debates that w= e have on here and would like to remind everyone to keep development talk on = this list for that reason and avoid having that on the support forum. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone has something to say about this, I would be happy to read you= r thoughts. If you do not want to disclose them in public, feel free to email= me in private, too. >>>>> >>>>> And now I am going to focus on that massive pile of work I have to do? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> -Michael >>>>> >>>> >=20 --===============7824235348763856798==--