Re: Launching our new website

[Robin Roevens <robin.roevens@disroot.org>]

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Hi Michael

Michael Tremer schreef op ma 08-01-2024 om 17:07 [+0000]:
> Hello Robin,
> 
> > On 7 Jan 2024, at 23:19, Robin Roevens <robin.roevens(a)disroot.org>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > Hello Michael, all
> > 
> > Overall I like the new layout and contents of the new site. The
> > front
> > page is attractive, compact and I think informs one just enough to
> > push
> > them to click on that Learn more button.
> 
> I find it almost too empty...
> 
> > The latest release notice on top of the page is also nice.
> > And I really like the new logo with the red "_". It does hurt a bit
> > somewhere deep to see the nostalgic tux go, but I admit that it
> > does
> > look a bit too 90s. :-)
> 
> Indeed. A little bit bittersweet :)
> 
> > The new about page also looks nice and is not too verbose at first,
> > but
> > I do like the full feature list at the bottom of the page. This is
> > information that may not be too important for a manager, but a nice
> > feature for anyone with a more technical background that is
> > scouting
> > for a new/replacement firewall product and doesn't want to spend
> > time
> > diving into documentation to find out what IPFire is technically
> > capable off. Here it is now nicely summarized.
> 
> Very good! This is what we wanted.
> 
> > I do have to note that in the upper part I have a few problems with
> > the
> > wording in:
> > "We securely connect your employees to their desks at home, your
> > global
> > business partners and the infrastructure in your data centre,
> > giving
> > you maximum flexibility so that you can focus on what really
> > matters."
> > I had to re-read the sentence a few times and I'm still not sure
> > what
> > you exactly mean?
> 
> Maybe I should have used ChatGPT for this :)
> 
> The intention is to explain that people can connect to their office
> from wherever they are in the world so that they can work as if they
> were sat at their desks. And on top comes that this works for
> businesses of all sizes.
> 
> > Are we connecting employees working at home to their office desk?
> > or
> > employees working at the office to their home desk (which I don't
> > think
> > is a big pro for many bosses, at least not the ones I worked for)
> > And are we connecting your global business partners to the
> > infractructure in your data centre, or are we connecting employees
> > to
> > global business partners, and to the infrastructure ?
> 
> All of the above?! :)
> 
> > (I know that all is possible with IPFire, but the current wording
> > strikes me as too vague or unclear as it can be interpreted in many
> > ways (at least to me :-)))
> 
> Sometimes I spent a long time getting these things right. After many
> versions, it happens that the result is simply crap. Sorry.

I have the same problem..:-)

> 
> Let’s put this on the list for some rewording, but if there is no
> time before the launch, this isn’t severe enough to stop the launch.
> It is at least better than what we had before.

I agree.

> 
> > And at last, I miss any mention of "the home user"; only "the
> > employee"
> > is addressed explicitly giving the impression that it is an
> > enterprise
> > only product or at least focused especially to enterprises. Which
> > is
> > not the case, I think? So, I think, if the employee is addressed,
> > the
> > home user should be mentioned also or neither should be.
> 
> No, we don’t focus only on one group, but I generally avoid talking
> about “home users” when possible. The reason simply is that people
> misunderstand this and I get emails that say “Is it already possible
> to use IPFire in a business? Is it stable enough?”.
> 
> The media also likes to write articles like “IPFire on Raspberry Pi
> X” and so people tend to think this is a toy project only.

The nostalgic tux logo probably didn't help either. :-)

> 
> Emphasising more on enterprise is my way to compensate for it.

I understand. I was not aware of it being perceived as a toy project by
some. 

> 
> > Also on the Easy to use part, as a technical user I would like to
> > also
> > read that access to the Linux shell (or "CLI" is maybe more
> > attractive
> > to more Microsoft-minded users) for the "power user" is only a
> > click
> > away. (Referencing to the "enable SSH" setting in the WUI, but
> > adding a
> > SSH console in the WUI is maybe also an idea worth exploring
> > sometime
> > :-))
> 
> Is that not on the long feature list?
> 
> > The latest Release notes on the download page is also a really nice
> > addition. Maybe a link "Older release notes..." which redirects to
> > the
> > blog would also be nice as I wouldn't intuitively go for the blog
> > link
> > in the main menu when looking for an overview of older release
> > notes.
> > But I think the current blog does mostly cover for an older release
> > notes overview page? 
> 
> I thought about this: A button to go to a previous release. But then
> I threw this away, because people tend to install old versions,
> because “that is the one that we tested and we now use it for all our
> customers”. And I don’t have to say how stupid that is.
> 
> Sometimes people send me emails asking for an older download link.

I agree with not making it too obvious where to find older versions. 

But not everyone keeps it's instance always up-to-date, even I have
skipped a version or two due to circumstances; And then I obviously
like to check the release notes of all versions I missed up until the
last. So those previous release notes (and not the downloads
themselves) should be easily found from the latest release notes, as I
wouldn't intuitively go to the blog for that. (I don't associate blog
automatically with release announcements. In the end I would most
probably find them, but it wouldn't be my first idea to go search for
them there.)

I think it might be better to separate the release notes and the
download links to the related versions. Instead just provide a link to
"the" download page which just or at least prominently offers you to
download the latest version. 
And an "archive" page somewhere more "hidden", with a big fat warning
on top, that it is insecure and totally not recommended to use an older
version, and just a clean (unattractive) list of links to downloads of
older versions.
The links in the blog posts would hence always point to the download
page offering the latest version prominently, and serve better as an
archive of release notes than as an archive of older versions as it
currently is.
Or something like that...?


> 
> > The blog page also looks nice and clean.
> 
> I find it too clean. Maybe even too empty?! There is a lot of white.
> 
> > An idea maybe, if easily implemented, is to add tags to blog posts
> > "release", "stable", "testing", "feature", "general", ... and the
> > ability to filter on those tags.
> 
> The blog has this functionality and I threw it away. We didn’t use it
> and we don’t have that many posts that its too easy to lose track.

Agreed, it was just an idea to be able to easily implement an overview
of older release notes for that "older release notes" links I suggested
earlier :-)

Regards
Robin

> 
> > This way you could set a filter on
> > "stable" and "release" tags when clicked on the above proposed
> > "Older
> > release notes" link on the download page :-).
> > 
> > See below for my findings about to red color usage...
> > 
> > Michael Tremer schreef op zo 07-01-2024 om 14:29 [+0000]:
> > > Hello Tom,
> > > 
> > > > On 7 Jan 2024, at 01:47, Tom Rymes <tom(a)rymes.net> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > On Jan 6, 2024, at 9:03 AM, Michael Tremer
> > > > > <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hello Tom,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thank you for your feedback!
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On 4 Jan 2024, at 23:44, Tom Rymes <tom(a)rymes.net> wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I really like it at first glance, though the red used in
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > banner on this page (and I think it’s all over the place, I
> > > > > > just didn’t confirm) is too close to magenta to my eyes.
> > > > > > It’s
> > > > > > bright, but more tropical flower than fire, IMHO (it
> > > > > > clashes a
> > > > > > bit with the fire video on the homepage).
> > > > > 
> > > > > Is it a bad thing to be close to magenta?
> > > > 
> > > > Not at all, it’s the juxtaposition of the video and the color
> > > > that
> > > > clashed, in my opinion.
> > > > 
> > > > The two aren’t near each other on the homepage, but if you load
> > > > the
> > > > homepage and then click on another page, the magenta is right
> > > > where
> > > > the video was, so they’re adjacent while on different pages, in
> > > > a
> > > > way.
> > > 
> > > Ah yes, that makes sense, depending on what page you are clicking
> > > next.
> > > 
> > > > > What I did get as negative feedback before was that the red
> > > > > is
> > > > > quite bright (as in: burns your eyes). I use Apple devices
> > > > > which
> > > > > have generally good colour representation and this feedback
> > > > > came
> > > > > from people that didn’t have calibrated screens (brightness
> > > > > and
> > > > > contrast up all the way)
> > > > 
> > > > This is a bit of an issue, I suppose, but less so. My
> > > > observation
> > > > was more of a clash between the magenta and the fire colors.
> > > > Magenta is often a bit intense, but maybe that just means it
> > > > shouldn’t be in big, broad patches covering large sections of
> > > > screen? I’ll leave that for the experts!
> > > 
> > > On my screen it looks fine without burning my eyes.
> > 
> > I do have to concur that the current red is too bright for my eyes.
> > It
> > is acceptable on the buttons and as text highlight color and such.
> > But
> > the big banners do hurt my eyes. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > The login page (https://www.michael.dev.ipfire.org/login) and the
> > > error pages use the colour for the entire screen and feels
> > > alright to
> > > me. Definitely a statement, but that is kind of what I was going
> > > for.
> > 
> > This is too much. I really can't even watch this page without
> > keeping
> > my eyes half closed.
> > 
> > I do have to note that it is currently night-time, it is dark, the
> > light is dim and my desktop theme has switched to dark mode. So the
> > contrast with the bright red may be too much.
> > But my monitor brightness adjusts automatically to environmental
> > light
> > and is also quite dim at this moment and also has auto
> > 'intelligent'
> > color correction (I checked if it made much difference to the red
> > with
> > that setting off, but it didn't).
> > I also checked with "nighttime colors" (very warm colors, white is
> > almost yellow.) But the red login page stays too bright for me to
> > look
> > at.
> > Maybe I can look at it with my eyes fully open at daytime. But I'm
> > not
> > sure we want a website that is only comfortable to visit during
> > daytime.
> > 
> > Generally I do like darker colors, like the previous maroon, and I
> > may
> > be a bit too sensitive for brightness/color intensity (had my eyes
> > lasered in the past, which can be a factor to that). But I assume
> > there
> > are people that are more sensitive to these things than me. So I'm
> > far
> > from convinced that this color is a good choice.
> > 
> > On my mobile phone the color on the banners is not as disturbing as
> > on
> > my desktop. It would not be my favorite, but I could live with it.
> > But
> > also here the login page is too much; I don't have to squeeze my
> > eyes
> > yet, but it is still very intense for me to look at.
> 
> Noted.
> 
> > Robin
> > 
> > > -Michael
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Tom
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
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> 
> 
> 

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