From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: Launching our new website Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:57:51 +0000 Message-ID: <9BBA7644-E10B-4163-A7CA-769B2EEAEEA9@ipfire.org> In-Reply-To: <7c6264cc17897ba6c7b747c621204ec332819b14.camel@sicho.home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2046713952158932620==" List-Id: --===============2046713952158932620== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Robin, > On 9 Jan 2024, at 15:43, Robin Roevens wrote: >=20 > Hi Michael >=20 > Michael Tremer schreef op ma 08-01-2024 om 17:07 [+0000]: >> Hello Robin, >>=20 >>> On 7 Jan 2024, at 23:19, Robin Roevens >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hello Michael, all >>>=20 >>> Overall I like the new layout and contents of the new site. The >>> front >>> page is attractive, compact and I think informs one just enough to >>> push >>> them to click on that Learn more button. >>=20 >> I find it almost too empty... >>=20 >>> The latest release notice on top of the page is also nice. >>> And I really like the new logo with the red "_". It does hurt a bit >>> somewhere deep to see the nostalgic tux go, but I admit that it >>> does >>> look a bit too 90s. :-) >>=20 >> Indeed. A little bit bittersweet :) >>=20 >>> The new about page also looks nice and is not too verbose at first, >>> but >>> I do like the full feature list at the bottom of the page. This is >>> information that may not be too important for a manager, but a nice >>> feature for anyone with a more technical background that is >>> scouting >>> for a new/replacement firewall product and doesn't want to spend >>> time >>> diving into documentation to find out what IPFire is technically >>> capable off. Here it is now nicely summarized. >>=20 >> Very good! This is what we wanted. >>=20 >>> I do have to note that in the upper part I have a few problems with >>> the >>> wording in: >>> "We securely connect your employees to their desks at home, your >>> global >>> business partners and the infrastructure in your data centre, >>> giving >>> you maximum flexibility so that you can focus on what really >>> matters." >>> I had to re-read the sentence a few times and I'm still not sure >>> what >>> you exactly mean? >>=20 >> Maybe I should have used ChatGPT for this :) >>=20 >> The intention is to explain that people can connect to their office >> from wherever they are in the world so that they can work as if they >> were sat at their desks. And on top comes that this works for >> businesses of all sizes. >>=20 >>> Are we connecting employees working at home to their office desk? >>> or >>> employees working at the office to their home desk (which I don't >>> think >>> is a big pro for many bosses, at least not the ones I worked for) >>> And are we connecting your global business partners to the >>> infractructure in your data centre, or are we connecting employees >>> to >>> global business partners, and to the infrastructure ? >>=20 >> All of the above?! :) >>=20 >>> (I know that all is possible with IPFire, but the current wording >>> strikes me as too vague or unclear as it can be interpreted in many >>> ways (at least to me :-))) >>=20 >> Sometimes I spent a long time getting these things right. After many >> versions, it happens that the result is simply crap. Sorry. >=20 > I have the same problem..:-) >=20 >>=20 >> Let=E2=80=99s put this on the list for some rewording, but if there is no >> time before the launch, this isn=E2=80=99t severe enough to stop the launc= h. >> It is at least better than what we had before. >=20 > I agree. >=20 >>=20 >>> And at last, I miss any mention of "the home user"; only "the >>> employee" >>> is addressed explicitly giving the impression that it is an >>> enterprise >>> only product or at least focused especially to enterprises. Which >>> is >>> not the case, I think? So, I think, if the employee is addressed, >>> the >>> home user should be mentioned also or neither should be. >>=20 >> No, we don=E2=80=99t focus only on one group, but I generally avoid talking >> about =E2=80=9Chome users=E2=80=9D when possible. The reason simply is tha= t people >> misunderstand this and I get emails that say =E2=80=9CIs it already possib= le >> to use IPFire in a business? Is it stable enough?=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >> The media also likes to write articles like =E2=80=9CIPFire on Raspberry Pi >> X=E2=80=9D and so people tend to think this is a toy project only. >=20 > The nostalgic tux logo probably didn't help either. :-) >=20 >>=20 >> Emphasising more on enterprise is my way to compensate for it. >=20 > I understand. I was not aware of it being perceived as a toy project by > some.=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> Also on the Easy to use part, as a technical user I would like to >>> also >>> read that access to the Linux shell (or "CLI" is maybe more >>> attractive >>> to more Microsoft-minded users) for the "power user" is only a >>> click >>> away. (Referencing to the "enable SSH" setting in the WUI, but >>> adding a >>> SSH console in the WUI is maybe also an idea worth exploring >>> sometime >>> :-)) >>=20 >> Is that not on the long feature list? >>=20 >>> The latest Release notes on the download page is also a really nice >>> addition. Maybe a link "Older release notes..." which redirects to >>> the >>> blog would also be nice as I wouldn't intuitively go for the blog >>> link >>> in the main menu when looking for an overview of older release >>> notes. >>> But I think the current blog does mostly cover for an older release >>> notes overview page?=20 >>=20 >> I thought about this: A button to go to a previous release. But then >> I threw this away, because people tend to install old versions, >> because =E2=80=9Cthat is the one that we tested and we now use it for all = our >> customers=E2=80=9D. And I don=E2=80=99t have to say how stupid that is. >>=20 >> Sometimes people send me emails asking for an older download link. >=20 > I agree with not making it too obvious where to find older versions.=20 >=20 > But not everyone keeps it's instance always up-to-date, even I have > skipped a version or two due to circumstances; And then I obviously > like to check the release notes of all versions I missed up until the > last. So those previous release notes (and not the downloads > themselves) should be easily found from the latest release notes, as I > wouldn't intuitively go to the blog for that. (I don't associate blog > automatically with release announcements. In the end I would most > probably find them, but it wouldn't be my first idea to go search for > them there.) >=20 > I think it might be better to separate the release notes and the > download links to the related versions. Instead just provide a link to > "the" download page which just or at least prominently offers you to > download the latest version.=20 > And an "archive" page somewhere more "hidden", with a big fat warning > on top, that it is insecure and totally not recommended to use an older > version, and just a clean (unattractive) list of links to downloads of > older versions. > The links in the blog posts would hence always point to the download > page offering the latest version prominently, and serve better as an > archive of release notes than as an archive of older versions as it > currently is. > Or something like that...? The download button on the release announcements will always lead you to that= release, and not the latest one. I agree that the blog is not the first place to look, but people will find it= I am sure. We used to have a =E2=80=9Cnews=E2=80=9D section on the page before we merged= that and the =E2=80=9Cplanet=E2=80=9D into a new blog. I suppose any version= that we go with has its downsides. >>=20 >>> The blog page also looks nice and clean. >>=20 >> I find it too clean. Maybe even too empty?! There is a lot of white. >>=20 >>> An idea maybe, if easily implemented, is to add tags to blog posts >>> "release", "stable", "testing", "feature", "general", ... and the >>> ability to filter on those tags. >>=20 >> The blog has this functionality and I threw it away. We didn=E2=80=99t use= it >> and we don=E2=80=99t have that many posts that its too easy to lose track. >=20 > Agreed, it was just an idea to be able to easily implement an overview > of older release notes for that "older release notes" links I suggested > earlier :-) >=20 > Regards > Robin >=20 >>=20 >>> This way you could set a filter on >>> "stable" and "release" tags when clicked on the above proposed >>> "Older >>> release notes" link on the download page :-). >>>=20 >>> See below for my findings about to red color usage... >>>=20 >>> Michael Tremer schreef op zo 07-01-2024 om 14:29 [+0000]: >>>> Hello Tom, >>>>=20 >>>>> On 7 Jan 2024, at 01:47, Tom Rymes wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Jan 6, 2024, at 9:03 AM, Michael Tremer >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =EF=BB=BFHello Tom, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thank you for your feedback! >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 4 Jan 2024, at 23:44, Tom Rymes wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I really like it at first glance, though the red used in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> banner on this page (and I think it=E2=80=99s all over the place, I >>>>>>> just didn=E2=80=99t confirm) is too close to magenta to my eyes. >>>>>>> It=E2=80=99s >>>>>>> bright, but more tropical flower than fire, IMHO (it >>>>>>> clashes a >>>>>>> bit with the fire video on the homepage). >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Is it a bad thing to be close to magenta? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Not at all, it=E2=80=99s the juxtaposition of the video and the color >>>>> that >>>>> clashed, in my opinion. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The two aren=E2=80=99t near each other on the homepage, but if you load >>>>> the >>>>> homepage and then click on another page, the magenta is right >>>>> where >>>>> the video was, so they=E2=80=99re adjacent while on different pages, in >>>>> a >>>>> way. >>>>=20 >>>> Ah yes, that makes sense, depending on what page you are clicking >>>> next. >>>>=20 >>>>>> What I did get as negative feedback before was that the red >>>>>> is >>>>>> quite bright (as in: burns your eyes). I use Apple devices >>>>>> which >>>>>> have generally good colour representation and this feedback >>>>>> came >>>>>> from people that didn=E2=80=99t have calibrated screens (brightness >>>>>> and >>>>>> contrast up all the way) >>>>>=20 >>>>> This is a bit of an issue, I suppose, but less so. My >>>>> observation >>>>> was more of a clash between the magenta and the fire colors. >>>>> Magenta is often a bit intense, but maybe that just means it >>>>> shouldn=E2=80=99t be in big, broad patches covering large sections of >>>>> screen? I=E2=80=99ll leave that for the experts! >>>>=20 >>>> On my screen it looks fine without burning my eyes. >>>=20 >>> I do have to concur that the current red is too bright for my eyes. >>> It >>> is acceptable on the buttons and as text highlight color and such. >>> But >>> the big banners do hurt my eyes.=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The login page (https://www.michael.dev.ipfire.org/login) and the >>>> error pages use the colour for the entire screen and feels >>>> alright to >>>> me. Definitely a statement, but that is kind of what I was going >>>> for. >>>=20 >>> This is too much. I really can't even watch this page without >>> keeping >>> my eyes half closed. >>>=20 >>> I do have to note that it is currently night-time, it is dark, the >>> light is dim and my desktop theme has switched to dark mode. So the >>> contrast with the bright red may be too much. >>> But my monitor brightness adjusts automatically to environmental >>> light >>> and is also quite dim at this moment and also has auto >>> 'intelligent' >>> color correction (I checked if it made much difference to the red >>> with >>> that setting off, but it didn't). >>> I also checked with "nighttime colors" (very warm colors, white is >>> almost yellow.) But the red login page stays too bright for me to >>> look >>> at. >>> Maybe I can look at it with my eyes fully open at daytime. But I'm >>> not >>> sure we want a website that is only comfortable to visit during >>> daytime. >>>=20 >>> Generally I do like darker colors, like the previous maroon, and I >>> may >>> be a bit too sensitive for brightness/color intensity (had my eyes >>> lasered in the past, which can be a factor to that). But I assume >>> there >>> are people that are more sensitive to these things than me. So I'm >>> far >>> from convinced that this color is a good choice. >>>=20 >>> On my mobile phone the color on the banners is not as disturbing as >>> on >>> my desktop. It would not be my favorite, but I could live with it. >>> But >>> also here the login page is too much; I don't have to squeeze my >>> eyes >>> yet, but it is still very intense for me to look at. >>=20 >> Noted. >>=20 >>> Robin >>>=20 >>>> -Michael >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Tom >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Dit bericht is gescanned op virussen en andere gevaarlijke >>> inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > Dit bericht is gescanned op virussen en andere gevaarlijke > inhoud door MailScanner en lijkt schoon te zijn. --===============2046713952158932620==--