From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: I am taking a little break Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 15:40:26 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <398f5016-9d76-fefb-c238-f97f87fd31de@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6393102997803053110==" List-Id: --===============6393102997803053110== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, > On 11 Jan 2021, at 18:08, Adolf Belka wrote: >=20 > Hallo all, >=20 > Unfortunately I think this is a reflection of how our society has been goin= g in the last 4 years. > I think they are the minority but they are very vocal and so make a lot of = noise that gets felt. This is definitely an argument I use to explain a lot of the problems that we= are all facing in our public lives. But I wasn=E2=80=99t sure if I wasn=E2= =80=99t making this all up in the =E2=80=9Cif you only have a hammer, every p= roblem looks like a nail=E2=80=9D kind of sense. > For people who just vent into the forum, I believe that their post should b= e closed or deleted and if the same behaviour is repeated several times then = maybe their account should be deleted. The Arch Linux forum implemented that = approach some time ago and you rarely see posts like that now. They are quick= ly closed or deleted. Okay, let=E2=80=99s do that. For some it is very easy, but some other posts a= re border-line. What do we do then? > Also if people post with a "I updated and now nothing works" they should be= pointed to somewhere that gives guidance on the sort of information that is = required when posting. There used to be a time when this almost always was hardware and I wrote the = hardware myths busters section on the wiki. Maybe it would be a good idea to = add a page that simply lists a couple of easy but effective trouble shooting = things. Very often hardware simply dies when being rebooted. Other times people simpl= y played with their system or reboot during the update process. It rarely is = anything that we got wrong in the updater. > Arch Linux follow that approach and people who don't offer specifics on the= commands used or the error messages from the logs etc get quickly directed t= o the Arch Forum Rules and the Newbie guide to posting. They have these as pi= nned posts in their Newbie category in the forum. The forum population now of= ten inform a poster that he needs to provide more information or point them a= t the rules. It is no longer just the moderators. Yes, that would be brilliant. I am just afraid that we would have many posts = that simply are just that: A post, a response with a link to the guidelines a= nd that is it - no further response. I guess it is an option to delete them a= fter a while of inactivity. > I think we need to think about more overtly thanking the community people w= ho have successfully helped someone. The like heart is there and is used but = maybe we also need to do something like an occasional thank you message in a = thread for. I click the like buttons a lot and I thought people would notice. > I suspect that whatever we do there will still be people who act with the w= rong behaviour. I think that we need to remind ourselves that the problem is = not ours it is theirs and we need to calm down and do something different for= a while. For me, walking my dog or going mountain biking help to get me back= to a calmer frame of mind. One in a hundred is fine. People do not always get along. But sometimes it fe= els like it is the vast majority. Maybe my frustration was taking over, but i= t felt too much like the same post again and again and again. > I also had a quick scan through parts of another firewall forum and they al= so have a similar set of forum questions to what we see. There was a post abo= ut installing their firewall and download speed being reduced by 80%, There w= ere some with very little information provided. So I think it is not a proble= m unique to IPFire. You are right; it seems to be a general problem. That helps me to not fall in= to despair about it. And it is very good to openly talk about these things wi= th you guys :) -Michael > Regards, > Adolf. >=20 >=20 > On 11/01/2021 15:28, Michael Tremer wrote: >> Hello all, >> Thank you everyone for your kind words on this matter. I appreciate it ver= y much, although I didn=E2=80=99t know how to respond back then. >>> On 26 Nov 2020, at 03:47, Jon Murphy wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Michael, >>>=20 >>> Sorry for the late reply to your note. I've been sick the past few days = and sleeping too much. All is good now. >>>=20 >>> Sorry for what you are going through. It really takes the joy out of wor= king especially when working at something you love. Nobody should ever be su= bject to this abuse. >> Luckily, absuse has somewhat disappeared recently. I am getting rather kin= d emails from users or people send me a nice email and said why they donated = a couple of bucks to the project. That feels really nice. >>> I completely agree with taking a step aside. Take whatever time is neede= d. You definitely deserve the time off! >> Yes, many people told me that they can absolutely understand my - rather c= onfusing - reasoning, because they have considered the same. Various people a= re popping in and out of the forum and are usually leaving with a feeling of = disappointment. >> I do not want that. >> I want our community to be a nice one. Although this is not the lounge of = the Internet and people come here to solve a problem, there is no need that t= his cannot be done in a nice way. >> Two months ago, I was considering to simply shut down the community portal= . It has been a pain point for a long time, and the transition from the old s= oftware to Discourse has not really helped too much. I do not know really wha= t I expected but at least a change in dynamic. >>> I would suggest never fully reading the nasty messages. Find a nasty par= t - hit the delete key! It won't give you any insight to their problem and i= t isn't worth your time. And it will definitely bring you down. >> As I heard, more messages have been deleted without any further ado. Has t= hat helped? I do not know. Did anyone notice change? >>> After the November holiday I'll reach out to the Community moderations. = I have a few thoughts and suggestions of ways to make this better: (e.g., wat= chlist / sh**list of bad apples, flagging sh** messages ). It'll probably ta= ke 100 little things that'll make the difference. >>>=20 >>> Side thought: I use Apple Mail and SpamSieve. Maybe you can set its cor= pus up with nasty words (e.g., arsehole) from nasty messages. Trash anything= nasty before reading it! The delete key is your friend! >> People don=E2=80=99t use nasty language. After all, I am German and that l= anguage is a lot filthier than English. We say things as they are, and that i= s not really what is bothering me. >> What is bothering me more is that people are wasting my time, because I am= not really convinced that they are hoping to get their problem fixed with em= ails like this. They want to vent. Maybe it is a sign of the times that they = cannot do it elsewhere, and maybe we are simply the first victim that they ra= ndomly find. It does=E2=80=99t really matter. >> One of the recent public examples would be this tweet: https://twitter.com= /BaatorianPrince/status/1344704180913627141 >> =E2=80=9CNothing works=E2=80=9D. Well, I am glad for you that you found be= tter software. This software works absolutely fine for me. >>> Hope you are able to get out and do something different! >> The pandemic does not really help with this, but I found some time to do s= omething different :) >> But now, I would like to talk about how we can fix this. The other day, we= got a message from another person who said that they gave up on the Communit= y Portal and I cannot accept that. Me not being a leading example here, it is= not what I want. >> It is not a requirement in the project to read every single post on there,= and of course I cannot and do not want to force anyone to do things they do = not enjoy. >> But if we want to keep the Community alive, we all need to engage with it = in some way. >> So I am here to ask for ideas on how we can achieve this? I would like to = have a conversation about what is going wrong (are we doing something wrong o= r is it just the same everywhere else) and what we can do about it. >> To me, engaging with the community is essential to good development and ul= timately to the success of the project. Right now, it does not give a very go= od image of us and what are all doing. >> How can we fix this? >> Best, >> -Michael >>>=20 >>> Take care! >>> Jon >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 19:17:32 +0000 >>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>> To: "IPFire: Development-List" >>>> Subject: I am taking a little break >>>> Message-ID: >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>=20 >>>> Hello everyone, >>>>=20 >>>> I would like to announce that I am taking a hiatus from the support foru= m on community.ipfire.org. >>>>=20 >>>> The main reason is not new, but I thought that it has been enough in the= last few weeks: The amount of abuse I receive is unreasonable. It comes in p= ersonal messages, emails and on public forums and are often quite personal. >>>>=20 >>>> I do not want to give any examples, because those people do not deserve = that their message is being singled out. There is no incident in particular t= hat has caused me frustration, but you all have seen what is being posted pub= licly and that is good enough to work as a foundation to what I would like to= point out... >>>>=20 >>>> We have a bit of a problem with our discourse. People have an entitlemen= t problem, put no work into their posts and expect - or even demand - people = to do their job for them. >>>>=20 >>>> I feel that reading those posts and writing a response which is not bein= g read by the original poster (let alone them trying to implement what I sugg= ested) is a waste of time. Of course it is up to them, but why would you ask = in the first place? Usually the problem is that it was not understood what I = answered. >>>>=20 >>>> Who would have thought that IT security is hard? >>>>=20 >>>> I am tired of trying to educate people about the most basic things that = are required to run IPFire. I am sick and tired of seeing IPFire being used w= rong and therefore people complaining about things that do not work as they w= ant them. I feel like I am explaining the same things over and over again. >>>>=20 >>>> I am done with having endless debates about the same topics which are do= ne already. Different people bring up the same arguments again but that does = not change anything. They complain when not being answered in length when the= y are just too lazy to search for the answer in a previous post. >>>>=20 >>>> I am being very frustrated and this is not good for neither me or the co= mmunity. >>>>=20 >>>> Not coming across as my finest recently I believe that I am starting to = act unfairly towards people who have not done anything wrong and try to make = a difference in this project. It will be better if I invested my time into th= ose things than those outlined above. >>>>=20 >>>> Closing the forum entirely was a thought that crossed my mind many more = times than once - and I know that I am not the online one who is thinking tha= t. It was in fact debated on our monthly team meeting before. >>>>=20 >>>> I do not care about the offenders and bullies at all. Trolls are gonna t= roll. There is only very little chance to point someone into the right direct= ion and help them to help themselves. I would rather prefer to have a smaller= user base instead of having these people who are destroying the community - = willingly or unwillingly. >>>>=20 >>>> We are an open source project - one community. I do care a lot about tha= t - and I would not allow anyone to destroy what we have all achieved togethe= r. It is sad to say, that it only needs very few people to spoil it for the r= est of us. >>>>=20 >>>> My personal pride aside, those who know me in person can tell you that I= do not care much about any defamation towards me, or accusations, blame or b= eing called an arsehole. But I do know for a fact that others take them less = lightly. >>>>=20 >>>> Some things recently have stopped being fun and are now quite the opposi= te. To avoid ruining mine and other people?s days I have decided to stop read= ing and replying on the support forum. I am not contributing anything useful = for anyone and it has not given me any input that will help me to do my job b= etter. This won?t be a big loss to anyone. >>>>=20 >>>> I would even encourage the rest of you who feel passionate about it help= to make that place useful again. It is the only place that we have where our= community can be. >>>>=20 >>>> This announcement is just there to let you all know that my perception o= f the project might vary from yours in the near future. I will of course be a= round on the development mailing list and get involved in the debates that we= have on here and would like to remind everyone to keep development talk on t= his list for that reason and avoid having that on the support forum. >>>>=20 >>>> If anyone has something to say about this, I would be happy to read your= thoughts. If you do not want to disclose them in public, feel free to email = me in private, too. >>>>=20 >>>> And now I am going to focus on that massive pile of work I have to do? >>>>=20 >>>> Best, >>>> -Michael >>>>=20 >>>=20 --===============6393102997803053110==--