From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:19:48 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <29f8b709851bcde3b323fe9a70540f802276ed46.camel@ipfire.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6055544172567963682==" List-Id: --===============6055544172567963682== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, > On 21 May 2020, at 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrot= e: >=20 > Hi, >=20 >=20 > 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy: >> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them >> pointed in the right direction. This is much better than a new user >> firing off a quick question to the Community. Most anything that is >> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing. >=20 >=20 > I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to > learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier. >=20 >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the >> start (not sure how many wiki pages?). Especially reading something >> that is technically difficult. >=20 > I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the > full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn > before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should > expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is > also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself. I suggested that. People cannot start somewhere in the middle. You will have to learn how to set up a network somewhere from the start. Iron= ing out mistakes is getting more difficult the larger it grows. Plenty of com= panies therefore struggle with their technological debt. I am not suggesting that reading our wiki will prevent you from making those = mistakes, but it is at least a place where you will learn how to avoid making= some of them. And that won=E2=80=99t fit into only a single paragraph. > I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is > technically > difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid > this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read. > Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the > need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets > improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They > will have to read not more and not less. >=20 >>=20 >> I=E2=80=99ll use myself as an example. Right now I am trying to learn a >> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX. I tried reading various >> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head. So I try a >> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try >> some thing than rinse & repeat. (And Yes I realize asterisks is not >> the same as IPFire). =20 This is a completely different thing though. I sometimes bake things. Literally nothing can go wrong there. It is not dang= erous, it won=E2=80=99t cost me a fortune when I lose customer data (as a com= pany) and so on. Security is so invisible and so difficult to understand for many and that is = what makes the difference for me. >>=20 >> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago. It works very >> well for me. >>=20 >> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good >> thing! >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> From: Jon Murphy >>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM >>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org,=20 >>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Oops=E2=80=A6 maybe my bad? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> ------------------------------ >>>>=20 >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100 >>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge >>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Tim, >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches. >>>>=20 >>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes. >>>>=20 >>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and >>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this >>>> not helpful to anyone: >>>>=20 >>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start >=20 >=20 > So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to > have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%. >=20 >>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly >>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes >>>>=20 >>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and >>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start >>>> before they do something? >=20 > I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then > did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need > to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When > they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this > issue. >=20 > The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry > point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and > for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability > improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people > who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand > the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or > that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever. >=20 > So to sum up what I try to explain: > We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of > people. We should not drop these features because some people have a > way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people, > whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still > have some questions left. >=20 > @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine > such things from code >=20 > @Michael: > I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer. > The guys at nextcloud have something like this: >=20 > https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11= e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png=20 >=20 > Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right > directions in the web interface itself? Yes, we could do something like this. -Michael >=20 > Greetings Jonatan >=20 >>>>=20 >>>> What is your rationale to implementing this? >>>>=20 >>>> Best, >>>> -Michael >>>>=20 >>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge < >>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI. >>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu. >>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' >>>>> themes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3): >>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code >>>>> Help for GUI - Help links >>>>> Help for GUI - help link style >>>>>=20 >>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu | 11 +++++++ >>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu | 13 ++++++++ >>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu | 20 +++++++++-- >>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu | 6 ++++ >>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu | 8 ++++- >>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu | 1 + >>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu | 33 >>>>> ++++++++++++------- >>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu | 1 + >>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu | 1 + >>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu | 1 + >>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu | 1 + >>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu | 1 + >>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu | 1 + >>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css | 8 +++++ >>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl | 19 +++++++++-- >>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-) >>>>>=20 >>>>> -- >>>>> 2.26.1 --===============6055544172567963682==--