Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI

[Michael Tremer <michael.tremer@ipfire.org>]

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> On 21 May 2020, at 20:31, Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> On 21/05/2020 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
>>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
>>> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
>>> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
>>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.
>> 
>> 
>> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
>> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
>>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
>>> that is technically difficult.
>> 
>> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
>> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
>> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
>> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
>> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.
>> 
>> 
>> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
>> technically
>> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
>> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
>> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
>> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
>> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
>> will have to read not more and not less.
>> 
>>> 
>>> I’ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
>>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
>>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
>>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
>>> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
>>> the same as IPFire).  
>>> 
>>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
>>> well for me.
>>> 
>>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
>>> thing!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> From: Jon Murphy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
>>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org, 
>>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oops…  maybe my bad?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
>>>>> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
>>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
>>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
>>>>> not helpful to anyone:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
>> 
>> 
>> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
>> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.
>> 
>>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
>>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
>>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
>>>>> before they do something?
>> 
>> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
>> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
>> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
>> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
>> issue.
>> 
>> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
>> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
>> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
>> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
>> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
>> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
>> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.
>> 
>> So to sum up what I try to explain:
>> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
>> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
>> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
>> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
>> have some questions left.
>> 
>> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
>> such things from code
>> 
>> @Michael:
>> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
>> The guys at nextcloud have something like this:
>> 
>> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png 
>> 
>> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
>> directions in the web interface itself?
>> 
>> Greetings Jonatan
>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> -Michael
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
>>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
>>>>>> themes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links
>>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
>>>>>> ++++++++++++-------
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> 2.26.1
>>>>>> 
>> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 21/05/2020 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy:
>>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them
>>> pointed in the right direction.  This is much better than a new user
>>> firing off a quick question to the Community.  Most anything that is
>>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing.
>> 
>> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to
>> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier.
>> 
>>> 
>>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the
>>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?).  Especially reading something
>>> that is technically difficult.
>> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the
>> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn
>> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should
>> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is
>> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself.
>> 
>> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is
>> technically
>> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid
>> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read.
>> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the
>> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets
>> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They
>> will have to read not more and not less.
>>> 
>>> I’ll use myself as an example.  Right now I am trying to learn a
>>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX.  I tried reading various
>>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head.  So I try a
>>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try
>>> some thing than rinse & repeat.  (And Yes I realize asterisks is not
>>> the same as IPFire).
>>> 
>>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago.  It works very
>>> well for me.
>>> 
>>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good
>>> thing!
>>>>>>> From: Jon Murphy
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM
>>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org,
>>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Oops…  maybe my bad?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100
>>>>> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge <ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk>
>>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI
>>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=utf-8
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes.
>>>>> 
>>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and
>>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this
>>>>> not helpful to anyone:
>>>>> 
>>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start
>> 
>> 
>> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to
>> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%.
> 
> And maybe it will encourage people to add the missing pages? (I won't
> hold my breath on this one).

I would agree, but keeping my fingers crossed.

> 
>> 
>>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly
>>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes
>>>>> 
>>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and
>>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start
>>>>> before they do something?
>> 
>> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then
>> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need
>> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When
>> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this
>> issue.
>> 
>> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry
>> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and
>> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability
>> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people
>> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand
>> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or
>> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever.
>> 
>> So to sum up what I try to explain:
>> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of
>> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a
>> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people,
>> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still
>> have some questions left.
>> 
>> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine
>> such things from code
> 
> I've attached the screenshot.  I decided to just use a question mark
> since, to me, I thought that putting 'Help' implies having a menu
> underneath rather than a single help link.  I put a circle around it to
> make it a little more prominent, but that's handled in the stylesheet so
> both are easily changed.

I do not think this is the right place. It is not obvious that this changes with the page.

Therefore I would rather suggest to have it in the top right corner of the first big white box on the page.

> 
>> 
>> @Michael:
>> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer.
>> The guys at nextcloud have something like this:
>> 
>> 
> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png
> 
>> 
>> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right
>> directions in the web interface itself?
> 
> I wonder whether putting a small font link or two in the standard wiki
> page header might help new users. I would clutter up the header, but it
> may be worth it, although as just clicking on the title takes you to the
> top of the wiki it shouldn't really make a difference.  Perhaps link the
> web site and community?

If we want to make things easy, we need to make sure that finding the wiki is easier than dropping a line on Community. We already have plenty of these useless posts and they are annoying and unhelpful to literally everybody.

-Michael

> 
> Tim
> 
>> 
>> Greetings Jonatan
>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> -Michael
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge <
>>>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI.
>>>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu.
>>>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded'
>>>>>>> themes.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3):
>>>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code
>>>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links
>>>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu                    | 11 +++++++
>>>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu                    | 13 ++++++++
>>>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu                   | 20 +++++++++--
>>>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu                  |  6 ++++
>>>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu                  |  8 ++++-
>>>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu                       | 33
>>>>>>> ++++++++++++-------
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu                   |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu                  |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu                     |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu                       |  1 +
>>>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu                    |  1 +
>>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css |  8 +++++
>>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl  | 19 +++++++++--
>>>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> 2.26.1
>>>>>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Screenshot_2020-05-21 testipfire - Status information.png
> <Screenshot_2020-05-21 testipfire - Status information.png>