From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Michael Tremer To: development@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI Date: Fri, 22 May 2020 14:22:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <851be8bf-9193-3c8a-1802-94a54b70909f@tfitzgeorge.me.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4515818112478420514==" List-Id: --===============4515818112478420514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 21 May 2020, at 20:31, Tim FitzGeorge wrote: >=20 > On 21/05/2020 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >>=20 >> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy: >>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them >>> pointed in the right direction. This is much better than a new user >>> firing off a quick question to the Community. Most anything that is >>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing. >>=20 >>=20 >> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to >> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the >>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?). Especially reading something >>> that is technically difficult. >>=20 >> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the >> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn >> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should >> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is >> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself. >>=20 >>=20 >> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is >> technically >> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid >> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read. >> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the >> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets >> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They >> will have to read not more and not less. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99ll use myself as an example. Right now I am trying to learn a >>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX. I tried reading various >>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head. So I try a >>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try >>> some thing than rinse & repeat. (And Yes I realize asterisks is not >>> the same as IPFire). =20 >>>=20 >>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago. It works very >>> well for me. >>>=20 >>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good >>> thing! >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> From: Jon Murphy >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM >>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org,=20 >>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Oops=E2=80=A6 maybe my bad? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>=20 >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100 >>>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge >>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and >>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this >>>>> not helpful to anyone: >>>>>=20 >>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start >>=20 >>=20 >> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to >> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%. >>=20 >>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly >>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes >>>>>=20 >>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and >>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start >>>>> before they do something? >>=20 >> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then >> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need >> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When >> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this >> issue. >>=20 >> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry >> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and >> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability >> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people >> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand >> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or >> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever. >>=20 >> So to sum up what I try to explain: >> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of >> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a >> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people, >> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still >> have some questions left. >>=20 >> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine >> such things from code >>=20 >> @Michael: >> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer. >> The guys at nextcloud have something like this: >>=20 >> https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-1= 1e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png=20 >>=20 >> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right >> directions in the web interface itself? >>=20 >> Greetings Jonatan >>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best, >>>>> -Michael >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge < >>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI. >>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu. >>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' >>>>>> themes. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3): >>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code >>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links >>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu | 11 +++++++ >>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu | 13 ++++++++ >>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu | 20 +++++++++-- >>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu | 6 ++++ >>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu | 8 ++++- >>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu | 33 >>>>>> ++++++++++++------- >>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu | 1 + >>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu | 1 + >>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css | 8 +++++ >>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl | 19 +++++++++-- >>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>> 2.26.1 >>>>>>=20 >>=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On 21/05/2020 19:51, Jonatan Schlag wrote: >> Hi, >>=20 >> 16.05.2020, 11:28 -0500 Jon Murphy: >>> My opinion: This encourages people to look at the wiki and gets them >>> pointed in the right direction. This is much better than a new user >>> firing off a quick question to the Community. Most anything that is >>> encourages people to get interested in IPFire is a good thing. >>=20 >> I do not know if it will encourage people, but if a person wants to >> learn to find the starting point for a certain topic, is much easier. >>=20 >>>=20 >>> There are very few people that will read the whole wiki from the >>> start (not sure how many wiki pages?). Especially reading something >>> that is technically difficult. >> I think nobody requests or requested that everybody have to read the >> full wiki. From my experiences, it is just better to read and learn >> before doing things. Try and error is also ok, but then nobody should >> expecting that somebody helps, when they get into trouble. There is >> also a learning effect in finding the solutions on yourself. >>=20 >> I also see your point that people might not read stuff that is >> technically >> difficult or hard to understand, but sometimes there is no way to avoid >> this. Learning new things can be hard and sometimes you have to read. >> Even links to the right wiki page will change nothing concerning the >> need that some people have to read a lot. The only thing that gets >> improved is that people have not to find the right place to start. They >> will have to read not more and not less. >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99ll use myself as an example. Right now I am trying to learn a >>> little about SIP and Asterisks and FreePBX. I tried reading various >>> pages of Asterisks (or FreePBX) and it is over my head. So I try a >>> few things on my Asterisks box, watch a video, read a little, try >>> some thing than rinse & repeat. (And Yes I realize asterisks is not >>> the same as IPFire). >>>=20 >>> I did the same with IPFire (and IPCop) many years ago. It works very >>> well for me. >>>=20 >>> Anything that makes it super easy to find a way to the wiki is a good >>> thing! >>>>>>> From: Jon Murphy >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 16, 2020, 11:10 AM >>>> To: development-request(a)lists.ipfire.org, >>>> development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Oops=E2=80=A6 maybe my bad? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>=20 >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 10:35:00 +0100 >>>>> From: Michael Tremer >>>>> To: Tim FitzGeorge >>>>> Cc: development(a)lists.ipfire.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/3] Help for GUI >>>>> Message-ID: <6390F8AE-998D-489E-A983-1A875E2761F2(a)ipfire.org> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Tim, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thank you very much for submitting these patches. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I am afraid that I must say that I oppose these changes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> This has recently been discussed on the community portal and >>>>> although I still have not made my mind up entirely, I think this >>>>> not helpful to anyone: >>>>>=20 >>>>> * We do not have documentation for everything for a start >>=20 >>=20 >> So a few pages are missing, but from my point of view, it is better to >> have a context-sensitive help for 90% of the pages as for 0%. >=20 > And maybe it will encourage people to add the missing pages? (I won't > hold my breath on this one). I would agree, but keeping my fingers crossed. >=20 >>=20 >>>>> * There is never this ?just read one sentence and you suddenly >>>>> will be an expert? thing this kind of promotes >>>>>=20 >>>>> Should we not rather link the wiki somewhere in the footer and >>>>> encourage people to start reading the whole thing from the start >>>>> before they do something? >>=20 >> I do not think that this promotes this. Maybe, but theses people then >> did not understand how things are working. Like written above, the need >> to read and also the amount people have to read will not change. When >> they do not understand this, I currently have no idea how to solve this >> issue. >>=20 >> The real improvement I see here is, that people find the right entry >> point to the wiki. They're also people who have a lot of knowledge and >> for them, a link to the corresponding wiki site is a usability >> improvement. Context-Sensitive Help is a nice feature for all people >> who know how to use it. People who know, when they did not understand >> the page where they were redirected, that they have to read more. Or >> that they have to understand more of the context/technologie/ whatever. >>=20 >> So to sum up what I try to explain: >> We should accept features which improving the usability for a lot of >> people. We should not drop these features because some people have a >> way to learn which does not work. We will not change these people, >> whatever we will do. So I vote to accept this improvement, but I still >> have some questions left. >>=20 >> @Tim could you send a Screenshot how this will look? I cannot imagine >> such things from code >=20 > I've attached the screenshot. I decided to just use a question mark > since, to me, I thought that putting 'Help' implies having a menu > underneath rather than a single help link. I put a circle around it to > make it a little more prominent, but that's handled in the stylesheet so > both are easily changed. I do not think this is the right place. It is not obvious that this changes w= ith the page. Therefore I would rather suggest to have it in the top right corner of the fi= rst big white box on the page. >=20 >>=20 >> @Michael: >> I also like the Idea that the wiki is linked in the footer. >> The guys at nextcloud have something like this: >>=20 >>=20 > https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/5169868/58201395-fa749000-7ca2-11= e9-96de-e0e2dbcb8836.png >=20 >>=20 >> Maybe we could create a website similar and pointing the users to right >> directions in the web interface itself? >=20 > I wonder whether putting a small font link or two in the standard wiki > page header might help new users. I would clutter up the header, but it > may be worth it, although as just clicking on the title takes you to the > top of the wiki it shouldn't really make a difference. Perhaps link the > web site and community? If we want to make things easy, we need to make sure that finding the wiki is= easier than dropping a line on Community. We already have plenty of these us= eless posts and they are annoying and unhelpful to literally everybody. -Michael >=20 > Tim >=20 >>=20 >> Greetings Jonatan >>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> What is your rationale to implementing this? >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best, >>>>> -Michael >>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On 15 May 2020, at 22:39, Tim FitzGeorge < >>>>>>> ipfr(a)tfitzgeorge.me.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Add per-page help link to GUI. >>>>>>> The link is extracted from the menu file and added to the menu. >>>>>>> Currently only implemented for 'ipfire' and 'ipfire-rounded' >>>>>>> themes. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Tim FitzGeorge (3): >>>>>>> Help for GUI - ipfire theme code >>>>>>> Help for GUI - Help links >>>>>>> Help for GUI - help link style >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> config/menu/10-system.menu | 11 +++++++ >>>>>>> config/menu/20-status.menu | 13 ++++++++ >>>>>>> config/menu/30-network.menu | 20 +++++++++-- >>>>>>> config/menu/40-services.menu | 6 ++++ >>>>>>> config/menu/50-firewall.menu | 8 ++++- >>>>>>> config/menu/60-ipfire.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> config/menu/70-log.menu | 33 >>>>>>> ++++++++++++------- >>>>>>> config/menu/EX-apcupsd.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> config/menu/EX-guardian.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> config/menu/EX-mpfire.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> config/menu/EX-samba.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> config/menu/EX-tor.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> config/menu/EX-wlanap.menu | 1 + >>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/css/style.css | 8 +++++ >>>>>>> html/html/themes/ipfire/include/functions.pl | 19 +++++++++-- >>>>>>> 15 files changed, 107 insertions(+), 18 deletions(-) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> 2.26.1 >>>>>>>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 > Screenshot_2020-05-21 testipfire - Status information.png > --===============4515818112478420514==--