Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[Michael Tremer]

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Hello,

I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.

I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
wrong.

I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
them... we need to do something.

Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
completely different things on them. Some had their own section.

The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
(http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
should I use? Examples? Done.

Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements

Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:

  http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start

As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.

I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
may be you can adopt some of them, too.

Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
with no background information, you are practically screwed.


So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
parts of the documentation.


I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
obsolete.

A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
soon". This has been there since 2013.
http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1

We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
needs to be updated or removed.
http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x

Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
existence of the one page.

This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.

There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
imagine something else but deleting all of this.
http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen


The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
which no one ever translated into any other language.

It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
even started.

I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
your point serious.

I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
information in there (the installation works the same since years for
instance).

So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
right now. That is dangerous.

I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
list. So I will take silence as an answer.

Best,
-Michael

Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[Timo Eissler]

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Hello,

except the point that we should have (if i understand you right) a
english and a germin version of all pages i'm totally with you.
In my opinion every IT related person should be able to read english
documentation. But i understand that home administrators may also want
to benefit from this great piece of software and aren't able to read
english.

So i think we should take a decision for maybe max three languages on
which we take care that everything is up to date.

If i had to find something in the wiki i often feel like... *Argh* why
couldn't i find this page, i know it was in here some time ago...
So i too think we should define a clear structure of how to organize our
knowledge. And too not confuse people, we should move everything
outdated away, maybe in an outdated section but not in the trashcan. I
agree that outdated information is useless in the presence, but maybe it
could be useful if you are in front of an ancient system.

Kind regards,

Timo

Am 08.02.2015 um 14:05 schrieb Michael Tremer:
> Hello,
>
> I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
> be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
> should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
>
> I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
> annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
> that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
> wrong.
>
> I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
> missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
> point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
> them... we need to do something.
>
> Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
> bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
> supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
> completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
>
> The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
> (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
> essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
> should I use? Examples? Done.
>
> Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
> to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
> where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
> the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
> searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
> detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
> the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
> can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
>
> Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
>
>   http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
>
> As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
> information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
> key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
> explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
> information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
> boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
> best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
> is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
>
> I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
> understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
> best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
> may be you can adopt some of them, too.
>
> Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
> much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
> answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
> times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
> page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
> with no background information, you are practically screwed.
>
>
> So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
> parts of the documentation.
>
>
> I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
> the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
> obsolete.
>
> A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
> soon". This has been there since 2013.
> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1
>
> We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
> Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
> should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
> needs to be updated or removed.
> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
>
> Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
> German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
> I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
> existence of the one page.
>
> This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
> point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
> have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
> maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
>
> There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
> Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
> imagine something else but deleting all of this.
> http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen
>
>
> The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
> Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
> Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
> difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
> which no one ever translated into any other language.
>
> It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
> promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
> even started.
>
> I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
> German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
> documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
> with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
> your point serious.
>
> I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
> community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
> other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
> these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
> information in there (the installation works the same since years for
> instance).
>
> So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
> the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
> seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
> right now. That is dangerous.
>
> I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
> happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
> list. So I will take silence as an answer.
>
> Best,
> -Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> Documentation mailing list
> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation

-- 
Timo Eissler
Senior Project Engineer / Consultant

Am Zuckerberg 54
D-71640 Ludwigsburg

Tel.: +49 7141 4094003
Mobil.: +49 151 20650311
Email: timo(a)teissler.de



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Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[Michael Tremer]

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Hi,

it's good to get some feedback on this topic.

On Mon, 2015-02-09 at 10:08 +0100, Timo Eissler wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> except the point that we should have (if i understand you right) a
> english and a germin version of all pages i'm totally with you.
> In my opinion every IT related person should be able to read english
> documentation. But i understand that home administrators may also want
> to benefit from this great piece of software and aren't able to read
> english.

Of course it is good having multiple translations of the documentation.
That is completely independent from the language. We just talk that much
about the German translation because IPFire is mostly used in Germany.
That does not mean that the majority of the people using IPFire speaks
German.

> So i think we should take a decision for maybe max three languages on
> which we take care that everything is up to date.

I disagree with that. There are not enough people caring enough about
documentation in their language (it is evenly difficult with English).
This is not about the languages that we want to support. This is about
that the documentation is generally not in a good state. 

> If i had to find something in the wiki i often feel like... *Argh* why
> couldn't i find this page, i know it was in here some time ago...
> So i too think we should define a clear structure of how to organize our
> knowledge. And too not confuse people, we should move everything
> outdated away, maybe in an outdated section but not in the trashcan. I
> agree that outdated information is useless in the presence, but maybe it
> could be useful if you are in front of an ancient system.

I don't find it useful at all. If we take the firewall GUI documentation
as an example, it makes sense to keep the old pages for a short while
until everyone has found the time to update their system. It does not
make much sense to me to keep it any longer because there is no point in
not updating your IPFire system. There are security patches you need to
install. Just do it.

Keeping old documentation would encourage not updating the systems in my
opinion.

Hope that clarifies my point at bit better.

-Michael

> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Timo
> 
> Am 08.02.2015 um 14:05 schrieb Michael Tremer:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
> > be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
> > should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
> >
> > I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
> > annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
> > that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
> > wrong.
> >
> > I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
> > missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
> > point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
> > them... we need to do something.
> >
> > Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
> > bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
> > supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
> > completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
> >
> > The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
> > (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
> > essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
> > should I use? Examples? Done.
> >
> > Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
> > to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
> > where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
> > the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
> > searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
> > detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
> > the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
> > can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
> >
> > Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
> >
> >   http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
> >
> > As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
> > information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
> > key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
> > explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
> > information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
> > boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
> > best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
> > is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
> >
> > I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
> > understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
> > best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
> > may be you can adopt some of them, too.
> >
> > Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
> > much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
> > answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
> > times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
> > page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
> > with no background information, you are practically screwed.
> >
> >
> > So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
> > parts of the documentation.
> >
> >
> > I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
> > the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
> > obsolete.
> >
> > A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
> > soon". This has been there since 2013.
> > http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1
> >
> > We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
> > Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
> > should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
> > needs to be updated or removed.
> > http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
> >
> > Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
> > German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
> > I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
> > existence of the one page.
> >
> > This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
> > point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
> > have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
> > maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
> >
> > There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
> > Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
> > imagine something else but deleting all of this.
> > http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen
> >
> >
> > The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
> > Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
> > Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
> > difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
> > which no one ever translated into any other language.
> >
> > It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
> > promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
> > even started.
> >
> > I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
> > German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
> > documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
> > with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
> > your point serious.
> >
> > I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
> > community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
> > other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
> > these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
> > information in there (the installation works the same since years for
> > instance).
> >
> > So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
> > the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
> > seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
> > right now. That is dangerous.
> >
> > I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
> > happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
> > list. So I will take silence as an answer.
> >
> > Best,
> > -Michael
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Documentation mailing list
> > Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> > http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Documentation mailing list
> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation

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Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[R. W. Rodolico]

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Who is actually managing the documentation? I have some articles written
(well, rough drafts). Is there one person who we should be talking to
about this?

Also, Michael talked about wanting a replacement for the software on the
documentation site. Does anyone have any ideas? I have a tech who is
also a web content person and I could donate some of her time to
transferring. She has already looked at the site and given a few
recommendations.

Work appears to be slowing here a little, so maybe we could put a little
time in.

Rod

On 02/08/2015 07:05 AM, Michael Tremer wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
> be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
> should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
> 
> I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
> annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
> that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
> wrong.
> 
> I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
> missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
> point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
> them... we need to do something.
> 
> Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
> bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
> supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
> completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
> 
> The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
> (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
> essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
> should I use? Examples? Done.
> 
> Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
> to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
> where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
> the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
> searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
> detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
> the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
> can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
> 
> Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
> 
>   http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
> 
> As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
> information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
> key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
> explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
> information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
> boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
> best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
> is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
> 
> I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
> understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
> best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
> may be you can adopt some of them, too.
> 
> Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
> much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
> answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
> times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
> page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
> with no background information, you are practically screwed.
> 
> 
> So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
> parts of the documentation.
> 
> 
> I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
> the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
> obsolete.
> 
> A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
> soon". This has been there since 2013.
> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1
> 
> We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
> Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
> should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
> needs to be updated or removed.
> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
> 
> Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
> German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
> I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
> existence of the one page.
> 
> This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
> point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
> have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
> maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
> 
> There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
> Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
> imagine something else but deleting all of this.
> http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen
> 
> 
> The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
> Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
> Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
> difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
> which no one ever translated into any other language.
> 
> It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
> promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
> even started.
> 
> I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
> German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
> documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
> with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
> your point serious.
> 
> I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
> community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
> other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
> these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
> information in there (the installation works the same since years for
> instance).
> 
> So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
> the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
> seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
> right now. That is dangerous.
> 
> I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
> happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
> list. So I will take silence as an answer.
> 
> Best,
> -Michael
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Documentation mailing list
> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
> 

-- 
"Rod" Rodolico
Daily Data, Inc.
POB 140465
Dallas TX 75214-0465
214.827.2170
http://www.dailydata.net

Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[Michael Tremer]

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Hey Rod,

sorry that I did not reply earlier.

On Thu, 2015-02-12 at 02:03 -0600, R. W. Rodolico wrote:
> Who is actually managing the documentation? I have some articles written
> (well, rough drafts). Is there one person who we should be talking to
> about this?

Nobody is, essentially. There are many people who write/edit an article
every once in a while and there were some people who invested many hours
like Erik. But there has never been a manager who has been managing
people all the time.

> Also, Michael talked about wanting a replacement for the software on the
> documentation site. Does anyone have any ideas? I have a tech who is
> also a web content person and I could donate some of her time to
> transferring. She has already looked at the site and given a few
> recommendations.

Indeed I am not too pleases with Dokuwiki. It is not too bad but I am
missing some functionality and a bit of performance. It is way better
than all the alternatives that are out there. I just don't find it easy
to use and I find the layout of the pages not too beautiful. Those are
things that can be changed by using plugins but those are not always
that well maintained.

> Work appears to be slowing here a little, so maybe we could put a little
> time in.

That is great. We always need native speakers to proof-read some things.
The main issue here is though that I need a commitment by more people to
actually care about the documentation. Otherwise it won't work. It is
not a task for just one or two people. It is something that needs to be
done by many and there are many different tasks. Proof-reading texts
that have been written by people who only speak English as a second
language is just one small part of that. We also need good content.
Comprehensive guides, good tutorials, in-depth explanations of things.

-Michael

> Rod
> 
> On 02/08/2015 07:05 AM, Michael Tremer wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
> > be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
> > should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
> > 
> > I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
> > annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
> > that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
> > wrong.
> > 
> > I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
> > missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
> > point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
> > them... we need to do something.
> > 
> > Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
> > bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
> > supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
> > completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
> > 
> > The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
> > (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
> > essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
> > should I use? Examples? Done.
> > 
> > Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
> > to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
> > where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
> > the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
> > searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
> > detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
> > the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
> > can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
> > 
> > Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
> > 
> >   http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
> > 
> > As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
> > information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
> > key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
> > explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
> > information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
> > boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
> > best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
> > is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
> > 
> > I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
> > understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
> > best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
> > may be you can adopt some of them, too.
> > 
> > Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
> > much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
> > answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
> > times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
> > page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
> > with no background information, you are practically screwed.
> > 
> > 
> > So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
> > parts of the documentation.
> > 
> > 
> > I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
> > the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
> > obsolete.
> > 
> > A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
> > soon". This has been there since 2013.
> > http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1
> > 
> > We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
> > Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
> > should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
> > needs to be updated or removed.
> > http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
> > 
> > Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
> > German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
> > I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
> > existence of the one page.
> > 
> > This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
> > point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
> > have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
> > maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
> > 
> > There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
> > Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
> > imagine something else but deleting all of this.
> > http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen
> > 
> > 
> > The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
> > Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
> > Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
> > difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
> > which no one ever translated into any other language.
> > 
> > It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
> > promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
> > even started.
> > 
> > I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
> > German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
> > documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
> > with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
> > your point serious.
> > 
> > I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
> > community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
> > other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
> > these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
> > information in there (the installation works the same since years for
> > instance).
> > 
> > So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
> > the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
> > seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
> > right now. That is dangerous.
> > 
> > I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
> > happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
> > list. So I will take silence as an answer.
> > 
> > Best,
> > -Michael
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > Documentation mailing list
> > Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> > http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
> > 
> 

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[trymes]

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One thing that would be helpful is a clear policy on what to do with outdated information. I know that I personally struggled with how to handle old details when the new firewall interface was introduced.

Tom

> On Feb 16, 2015, at 2:06 PM, Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org> wrote:
> 
> Hey Rod,
> 
> sorry that I did not reply earlier.
> 
>> On Thu, 2015-02-12 at 02:03 -0600, R. W. Rodolico wrote:
>> Who is actually managing the documentation? I have some articles written
>> (well, rough drafts). Is there one person who we should be talking to
>> about this?
> 
> Nobody is, essentially. There are many people who write/edit an article
> every once in a while and there were some people who invested many hours
> like Erik. But there has never been a manager who has been managing
> people all the time.
> 
>> Also, Michael talked about wanting a replacement for the software on the
>> documentation site. Does anyone have any ideas? I have a tech who is
>> also a web content person and I could donate some of her time to
>> transferring. She has already looked at the site and given a few
>> recommendations.
> 
> Indeed I am not too pleases with Dokuwiki. It is not too bad but I am
> missing some functionality and a bit of performance. It is way better
> than all the alternatives that are out there. I just don't find it easy
> to use and I find the layout of the pages not too beautiful. Those are
> things that can be changed by using plugins but those are not always
> that well maintained.
> 
>> Work appears to be slowing here a little, so maybe we could put a little
>> time in.
> 
> That is great. We always need native speakers to proof-read some things.
> The main issue here is though that I need a commitment by more people to
> actually care about the documentation. Otherwise it won't work. It is
> not a task for just one or two people. It is something that needs to be
> done by many and there are many different tasks. Proof-reading texts
> that have been written by people who only speak English as a second
> language is just one small part of that. We also need good content.
> Comprehensive guides, good tutorials, in-depth explanations of things.
> 
> -Michael
> 
>> Rod
>> 
>>> On 02/08/2015 07:05 AM, Michael Tremer wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
>>> be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
>>> should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
>>> 
>>> I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
>>> annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
>>> that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
>>> wrong.
>>> 
>>> I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
>>> missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
>>> point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
>>> them... we need to do something.
>>> 
>>> Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
>>> bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
>>> supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
>>> completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
>>> 
>>> The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
>>> (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
>>> essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
>>> should I use? Examples? Done.
>>> 
>>> Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
>>> to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
>>> where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
>>> the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
>>> searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
>>> detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
>>> the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
>>> can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
>>> 
>>> Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
>>> 
>>>  http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
>>> 
>>> As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
>>> information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
>>> key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
>>> explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
>>> information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
>>> boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
>>> best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
>>> is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
>>> 
>>> I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
>>> understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
>>> best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
>>> may be you can adopt some of them, too.
>>> 
>>> Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
>>> much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
>>> answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
>>> times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
>>> page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
>>> with no background information, you are practically screwed.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
>>> parts of the documentation.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
>>> the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
>>> obsolete.
>>> 
>>> A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
>>> soon". This has been there since 2013.
>>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1
>>> 
>>> We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
>>> Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
>>> should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
>>> needs to be updated or removed.
>>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
>>> 
>>> Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
>>> German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
>>> I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
>>> existence of the one page.
>>> 
>>> This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
>>> point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
>>> have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
>>> maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
>>> 
>>> There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
>>> Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
>>> imagine something else but deleting all of this.
>>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
>>> Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
>>> Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
>>> difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
>>> which no one ever translated into any other language.
>>> 
>>> It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
>>> promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
>>> even started.
>>> 
>>> I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
>>> German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
>>> documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
>>> with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
>>> your point serious.
>>> 
>>> I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
>>> community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
>>> other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
>>> these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
>>> information in there (the installation works the same since years for
>>> instance).
>>> 
>>> So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
>>> the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
>>> seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
>>> right now. That is dangerous.
>>> 
>>> I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
>>> happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
>>> list. So I will take silence as an answer.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> -Michael
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Documentation mailing list
>>> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
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> Subject: Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing
> duplicate/obsolete stuff)
> From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> To: "R. W. Rodolico" <rodo(a)dailydata.net>
> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:05:37 +0100
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> 
> Hey Rod,
> 
> sorry that I did not reply earlier.
> 
>> On Thu, 2015-02-12 at 02:03 -0600, R. W. Rodolico wrote:
>> Who is actually managing the documentation? I have some articles written
>> (well, rough drafts). Is there one person who we should be talking to
>> about this?
> 
> Nobody is, essentially. There are many people who write/edit an article
> every once in a while and there were some people who invested many hours
> like Erik. But there has never been a manager who has been managing
> people all the time.
> 
>> Also, Michael talked about wanting a replacement for the software on the
>> documentation site. Does anyone have any ideas? I have a tech who is
>> also a web content person and I could donate some of her time to
>> transferring. She has already looked at the site and given a few
>> recommendations.
> 
> Indeed I am not too pleases with Dokuwiki. It is not too bad but I am
> missing some functionality and a bit of performance. It is way better
> than all the alternatives that are out there. I just don't find it easy
> to use and I find the layout of the pages not too beautiful. Those are
> things that can be changed by using plugins but those are not always
> that well maintained.
> 
>> Work appears to be slowing here a little, so maybe we could put a little
>> time in.
> 
> That is great. We always need native speakers to proof-read some things.
> The main issue here is though that I need a commitment by more people to
> actually care about the documentation. Otherwise it won't work. It is
> not a task for just one or two people. It is something that needs to be
> done by many and there are many different tasks. Proof-reading texts
> that have been written by people who only speak English as a second
> language is just one small part of that. We also need good content.
> Comprehensive guides, good tutorials, in-depth explanations of things.
> 
> -Michael
> 
>> Rod
>> =20
>>> On 02/08/2015 07:05 AM, Michael Tremer wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> =20
>>> I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
>>> be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
>>> should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
>>> =20
>>> I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
>>> annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
>>> that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
>>> wrong.
>>> =20
>>> I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
>>> missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to =
> a
>>> point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
>>> them... we need to do something.
>>> =20
>>> Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
>>> bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
>>> supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
>>> completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
>>> =20
>>> The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
>>> (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
>>> essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
>>> should I use? Examples? Done.
>>> =20
>>> Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
>>> to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decision=
> s
>>> where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that o=
> n
>>> the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
>>> searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
>>> detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page show=
> s
>>> the recommended hardware specification. All other information about tha=
> t
>>> can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
>>> =20
>>> Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
>>> =20
>>>  http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
>>> =20
>>> As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
>>> information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
>>> key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
>>> explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
>>> information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of th=
> e
>>> boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
>>> best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
>>> is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
>>> =20
>>> I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
>>> understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not th=
> e
>>> best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
>>> may be you can adopt some of them, too.
>>> =20
>>> Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds s=
> o
>>> much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
>>> answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
>>> times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
>>> page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first tim=
> e
>>> with no background information, you are practically screwed.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
>>> parts of the documentation.
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providin=
> g
>>> the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated o=
> r
>>> obsolete.
>>> =20
>>> A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
>>> soon". This has been there since 2013.
>>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen=
> _4.1
>>> =20
>>> We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
>>> Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
>>> should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
>>> needs to be updated or removed.
>>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
>>> =20
>>> Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
>>> German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze=
> ?
>>> I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
>>> existence of the one page.
>>> =20
>>> This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
>>> point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
>>> have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
>>> maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
>>> =20
>>> There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
>>> Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I canno=
> t
>>> imagine something else but deleting all of this.
>>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_x=
> en
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section=
> .
>>> Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
>>> Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
>>> difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
>>> which no one ever translated into any other language.
>>> =20
>>> It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people mad=
> e
>>> promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
>>> even started.
>>> =20
>>> I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
>>> German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to kee=
> p
>>> documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
>>> with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
>>> your point serious.
>>> =20
>>> I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
>>> community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
>>> other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
>>> these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
>>> information in there (the installation works the same since years for
>>> instance).
>>> =20
>>> So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
>>> the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
>>> seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
>>> right now. That is dangerous.
>>> =20
>>> I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
>>> happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
>>> list. So I will take silence as an answer.
>>> =20
>>> Best,
>>> -Michael
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Documentation mailing list
>>> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
>>> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
>>> =20
>> =20
> 
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> 
> _______________________________________________
> Documentation mailing list
> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
> 
> --===============6022088350758620877==--
> 

Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing duplicate/obsolete stuff)

[Michael Tremer]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 24703 bytes --]

Hello Tom,

I personally would suggest to remove it. I don't find it useful for
anything any more.

Running a very old version of IPFire does not make any sense for anyone.
It is very harmful as there might be many bugs or vulnerabilities. So
this should not be promoted by having old documentation.

Outdated documentation about things that are not directly related to
IPFire (like the Debian installation guides on how to build a Xen
server) should be removed as well.

If anyone is searching for something very particular there is still the
history feature of the wiki where you can go back in time.

-Michael

On Mon, 2015-02-16 at 17:21 -0500, trymes(a)rymes.com wrote:
> One thing that would be helpful is a clear policy on what to do with outdated information. I know that I personally struggled with how to handle old details when the new firewall interface was introduced.
> 
> Tom
> 
> > On Feb 16, 2015, at 2:06 PM, Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org> wrote:
> > 
> > Hey Rod,
> > 
> > sorry that I did not reply earlier.
> > 
> >> On Thu, 2015-02-12 at 02:03 -0600, R. W. Rodolico wrote:
> >> Who is actually managing the documentation? I have some articles written
> >> (well, rough drafts). Is there one person who we should be talking to
> >> about this?
> > 
> > Nobody is, essentially. There are many people who write/edit an article
> > every once in a while and there were some people who invested many hours
> > like Erik. But there has never been a manager who has been managing
> > people all the time.
> > 
> >> Also, Michael talked about wanting a replacement for the software on the
> >> documentation site. Does anyone have any ideas? I have a tech who is
> >> also a web content person and I could donate some of her time to
> >> transferring. She has already looked at the site and given a few
> >> recommendations.
> > 
> > Indeed I am not too pleases with Dokuwiki. It is not too bad but I am
> > missing some functionality and a bit of performance. It is way better
> > than all the alternatives that are out there. I just don't find it easy
> > to use and I find the layout of the pages not too beautiful. Those are
> > things that can be changed by using plugins but those are not always
> > that well maintained.
> > 
> >> Work appears to be slowing here a little, so maybe we could put a little
> >> time in.
> > 
> > That is great. We always need native speakers to proof-read some things.
> > The main issue here is though that I need a commitment by more people to
> > actually care about the documentation. Otherwise it won't work. It is
> > not a task for just one or two people. It is something that needs to be
> > done by many and there are many different tasks. Proof-reading texts
> > that have been written by people who only speak English as a second
> > language is just one small part of that. We also need good content.
> > Comprehensive guides, good tutorials, in-depth explanations of things.
> > 
> > -Michael
> > 
> >> Rod
> >> 
> >>> On 02/08/2015 07:05 AM, Michael Tremer wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> 
> >>> I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
> >>> be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
> >>> should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
> >>> 
> >>> I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
> >>> annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
> >>> that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
> >>> wrong.
> >>> 
> >>> I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
> >>> missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to a
> >>> point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
> >>> them... we need to do something.
> >>> 
> >>> Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
> >>> bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
> >>> supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
> >>> completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
> >>> 
> >>> The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
> >>> (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
> >>> essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
> >>> should I use? Examples? Done.
> >>> 
> >>> Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
> >>> to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decisions
> >>> where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that on
> >>> the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
> >>> searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
> >>> detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page shows
> >>> the recommended hardware specification. All other information about that
> >>> can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
> >>> 
> >>> Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
> >>> 
> >>>  http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
> >>> 
> >>> As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
> >>> information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
> >>> key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
> >>> explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
> >>> information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of the
> >>> boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
> >>> best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
> >>> is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
> >>> 
> >>> I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
> >>> understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not the
> >>> best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
> >>> may be you can adopt some of them, too.
> >>> 
> >>> Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds so
> >>> much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
> >>> answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
> >>> times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
> >>> page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first time
> >>> with no background information, you are practically screwed.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
> >>> parts of the documentation.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providing
> >>> the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated or
> >>> obsolete.
> >>> 
> >>> A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
> >>> soon". This has been there since 2013.
> >>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen_4.1
> >>> 
> >>> We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
> >>> Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
> >>> should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
> >>> needs to be updated or removed.
> >>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
> >>> 
> >>> Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
> >>> German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze?
> >>> I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
> >>> existence of the one page.
> >>> 
> >>> This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
> >>> point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
> >>> have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
> >>> maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
> >>> 
> >>> There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
> >>> Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I cannot
> >>> imagine something else but deleting all of this.
> >>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_xen
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section.
> >>> Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
> >>> Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
> >>> difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
> >>> which no one ever translated into any other language.
> >>> 
> >>> It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people made
> >>> promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
> >>> even started.
> >>> 
> >>> I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
> >>> German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to keep
> >>> documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
> >>> with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
> >>> your point serious.
> >>> 
> >>> I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
> >>> community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
> >>> other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
> >>> these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
> >>> information in there (the installation works the same since years for
> >>> instance).
> >>> 
> >>> So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
> >>> the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
> >>> seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
> >>> right now. That is dangerous.
> >>> 
> >>> I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
> >>> happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
> >>> list. So I will take silence as an answer.
> >>> 
> >>> Best,
> >>> -Michael
> >>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Documentation mailing list
> >>> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> >>> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
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> > Message-ID: <1424113537.17826.69.camel(a)ipfire.org>
> > Subject: Re: Restructuring of the hardware section (i.e. removing
> > duplicate/obsolete stuff)
> > From: Michael Tremer <michael.tremer(a)ipfire.org>
> > To: "R. W. Rodolico" <rodo(a)dailydata.net>
> > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2015 20:05:37 +0100
> > In-Reply-To: <54DC5E6F.9030803(a)dailydata.net>
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> > <54DC5E6F.9030803(a)dailydata.net>
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> > 
> > --===============6022088350758620877==
> > Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha512";
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> > 
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> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> > 
> > Hey Rod,
> > 
> > sorry that I did not reply earlier.
> > 
> >> On Thu, 2015-02-12 at 02:03 -0600, R. W. Rodolico wrote:
> >> Who is actually managing the documentation? I have some articles written
> >> (well, rough drafts). Is there one person who we should be talking to
> >> about this?
> > 
> > Nobody is, essentially. There are many people who write/edit an article
> > every once in a while and there were some people who invested many hours
> > like Erik. But there has never been a manager who has been managing
> > people all the time.
> > 
> >> Also, Michael talked about wanting a replacement for the software on the
> >> documentation site. Does anyone have any ideas? I have a tech who is
> >> also a web content person and I could donate some of her time to
> >> transferring. She has already looked at the site and given a few
> >> recommendations.
> > 
> > Indeed I am not too pleases with Dokuwiki. It is not too bad but I am
> > missing some functionality and a bit of performance. It is way better
> > than all the alternatives that are out there. I just don't find it easy
> > to use and I find the layout of the pages not too beautiful. Those are
> > things that can be changed by using plugins but those are not always
> > that well maintained.
> > 
> >> Work appears to be slowing here a little, so maybe we could put a little
> >> time in.
> > 
> > That is great. We always need native speakers to proof-read some things.
> > The main issue here is though that I need a commitment by more people to
> > actually care about the documentation. Otherwise it won't work. It is
> > not a task for just one or two people. It is something that needs to be
> > done by many and there are many different tasks. Proof-reading texts
> > that have been written by people who only speak English as a second
> > language is just one small part of that. We also need good content.
> > Comprehensive guides, good tutorials, in-depth explanations of things.
> > 
> > -Michael
> > 
> >> Rod
> >> =20
> >>> On 02/08/2015 07:05 AM, Michael Tremer wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>> =20
> >>> I am writing this to you just because things need to be said. It might
> >>> be that not everyone who reaches this email is the right person who
> >>> should read this, but nevertheless I am annoyed.
> >>> =20
> >>> I am deeply annoyed with the state the wiki is in and I have been
> >>> annoyed for a long long time. There is so much documentation in there
> >>> that is either in a bad state, is completely outdated or is now just
> >>> wrong.
> >>> =20
> >>> I often stated that I am willing to tolerate if there is information
> >>> missing in one or the other of all the languages, but when it comes to =
> > a
> >>> point where people are more confused by the documentation than it helps
> >>> them... we need to do something.
> >>> =20
> >>> Last night, I restructured the entire hardware section. It was really
> >>> bad. Especially information about the various ARM hardware that is
> >>> supported was all over the place. Some pages have been there twice with
> >>> completely different things on them. Some had their own section.
> >>> =20
> >>> The result of that is that the landing page of the hardware section
> >>> (http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/start) was stripped to the bare
> >>> essentials in my opinion. What are the requirements? What hardware
> >>> should I use? Examples? Done.
> >>> =20
> >>> Some things that have been on the very long page before were just moved
> >>> to a sub-page. I find it very important to explain why certain decision=
> > s
> >>> where made and what reasons are behind something. But having all that o=
> > n
> >>> the first page is not helping. People don't read long texts if they are
> >>> searching for a particular thing. If someone is interested in more
> >>> detail he or she will search for that any way. So the landing page show=
> > s
> >>> the recommended hardware specification. All other information about tha=
> > t
> >>> can be found over here: http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/requirements
> >>> =20
> >>> Then I created a section which just handles the ARM hardware:
> >>> =20
> >>>  http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/hardware/arm/start
> >>> =20
> >>> As mentioned before, there is no new information. This is just all the
> >>> information collected from the rest of the wiki and restructured. The
> >>> key element here is a table with all the hardware we support (or
> >>> explicitly do not support). I figured that this is the most important
> >>> information that the users are searching for. If you click on one of th=
> > e
> >>> boards, you will find additional information. Those pages are not the
> >>> best and explain how to install an ARM board over and over again. That
> >>> is good for now, but needs to be cleaned up as well in the near future.
> >>> =20
> >>> I am telling you this because I want you (who ever is interested) to
> >>> understand what I have in mind when I write these things. It may not th=
> > e
> >>> best thing, but I have some points why I am doing it like I do it and
> >>> may be you can adopt some of them, too.
> >>> =20
> >>> Clean design and clear structure is hugely important. This wiki holds s=
> > o
> >>> much information about IPFire that almost every questions can be
> >>> answered. The problem with that is that it is very hard to find at
> >>> times. If you know what you are searching for you will find the right
> >>> page very quickly. If you are searching for something for the first tim=
> > e
> >>> with no background information, you are practically screwed.
> >>> =20
> >>> =20
> >>> So to bring this all to a point: I am very much inclined to delete huge
> >>> parts of the documentation.
> >>> =20
> >>> =20
> >>> I find it much better to have no information at all instead of providin=
> > g
> >>> the users with wrong information. Wrong could also mean just outdated o=
> > r
> >>> obsolete.
> >>> =20
> >>> A few examples: We don't need pages which say "English version coming
> >>> soon". This has been there since 2013.
> >>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_wheezy_xen=
> > _4.1
> >>> =20
> >>> We also do not need installation guides for outdated software (here
> >>> Debian). If anybody is going to install a virtualization host, they
> >>> should certainly start with the current stable version. So either this
> >>> needs to be updated or removed.
> >>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/en/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_xen_4.x
> >>> =20
> >>> Why did someone even start writing a separate page for Wheezy (only in
> >>> German) when there was already a page about the same topic with Squeeze=
> > ?
> >>> I imagine this has happened because the author was unaware of the
> >>> existence of the one page.
> >>> =20
> >>> This is just one of the many examples I can bring here and I should
> >>> point out that I am not at all disappointed with the work many people
> >>> have done here. There is only something massively wrong with how it is
> >>> maintained. Outdated information isn't worth a penny.
> >>> =20
> >>> There is a third page about the same topic handling Debian Lenny.
> >>> Someone added a notes that this page is outdated. At this point I canno=
> > t
> >>> imagine something else but deleting all of this.
> >>> http://wiki.ipfire.org/de/addons/virtualisation/howto/debian_als_dom0_x=
> > en
> >>> =20
> >>> =20
> >>> The other topic that is the missing translation is the firewall section=
> > .
> >>> Since almost a year now there is a completely rewritten firewall GUI.
> >>> Nothing looks the same any more and some parts have become more
> >>> difficult to use. Hence we wrote a very decent firewall documentation
> >>> which no one ever translated into any other language.
> >>> =20
> >>> It has been pointed out several times on the forums and many people mad=
> > e
> >>> promises to actually do something about it. No one ever did. It was not
> >>> even started.
> >>> =20
> >>> I cannot help it thinking that there is just no interest in having a
> >>> German translation. Many people argue often that it is important to kee=
> > p
> >>> documentation accessible in various languages and I completely agree
> >>> with that. But if nobody cares doing the work I can not take you and
> >>> your point serious.
> >>> =20
> >>> I am especially picking on the German translation as we have a huge
> >>> community of people who are speaking German. The translations of the
> >>> other languages are not very much advanced so that people don't read
> >>> these at all and even if they do, there is not so much outdated
> >>> information in there (the installation works the same since years for
> >>> instance).
> >>> =20
> >>> So in the end there must be consequences. I am not sure about what is
> >>> the right way - quite possibly is there no right way of doing this. But
> >>> seriously guys, we cannot keep doing this in this way we are doing it
> >>> right now. That is dangerous.
> >>> =20
> >>> I wonder if someone has something to say about this matter. I would be
> >>> happy to hear from you all. There are over 50 people subscribed to this
> >>> list. So I will take silence as an answer.
> >>> =20
> >>> Best,
> >>> -Michael
> >>> =20
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Documentation mailing list
> >>> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> >>> http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
> >>> =20
> >> =20
> > 
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> > _______________________________________________
> > Documentation mailing list
> > Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org
> > http://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation
> > 
> > --===============6022088350758620877==--
> > 

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