From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: tulpenknicker@disroot.org To: documentation@lists.ipfire.org Subject: Re: Wiki - doku Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 21:56:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7629392639137245803==" List-Id: --===============7629392639137245803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Du hast leider nicht ansatzweise verstanden wovon ich rede. Das ist nicht wei= ter tragisch. Es ging stets nur darum was richtig ist und was falsch und das = ich Gewisse Dinge =C3=BCberfl=C3=BCssig finde. Es ging niemals darum das ich = die Beitr=C3=A4ge nicht gut genug finde. Sondern zu gut im Sinne von viel zu = viel, und m=C3=B6glicherweise falsch (pinhole). Was du daraus machst, meinst = daraus lesen zu k=C3=B6nnen, entzieht sich meiner Kenntnis. Ich habe mehrfach= gesagt das mein Englisch beschissen ist. M=C3=B6glicherweise dr=C3=BCcke ich= mich total falsch aus oder verstehe es total falsch.=20 Tragisch f=C3=BCr mich ist letztlich in deiner emotionsbehafteten Antwort nur= ein Punkt den du erw=C3=A4hnt hast. >just because that privacy makes you feel safe Du hast mich nicht so hinzustellen wie wenn ich meine Antworten verstecken m= =C3=BCsste durch eine PM. Darum gehts definitiv nicht. Ich frage mich warum d= u nicht deine s=C3=A4mtlichen PM ver=C3=B6ffentlichst? Ist doch alles open? U= nd warum ver=C3=B6ffentlichst du eigentlich keinen Monatlichen Report wieviel= Spendengelder eingegangen sind? Ist doch alles open?!? Ich habe lediglich me= in Recht eingefordert das ich in Deutschland als normal betrachte. Menschlich= ebenso. Aber bei den Cowboys=3DAmerika eben in dieser art nicht vorhanden is= t. Und nein das hatte nix mit Jon=3DUsa zu tun. Sondern das man in Deutschlan= d besonderen Wert auf Rechte legt. Ich zumindest, bei dir scheint das anders = ausgepr=C3=A4gt. Belustigung finde ich dadurch das offensichtlich derzeit wieder Bilder angesa= gt sind aber stets vermieden wird was nun richtig ist und was falsch. DMZ pin= hole. Der 2. Kommentar nach dir war auch lustig. Du hast es leider auch nicht verst= anden. Es geht um die gesunde Mittelschicht, weder um Experten die in der Tat= das Wiki nicht ben=C3=B6tigen aber auch nicht um jemand um den man Bef=C3=BC= rchtung hat ein Bild auf einmal =C3=BCberfordert das Denkzentrum v=C3=B6llig.= Daher teile ich es lieber auf und schreibe sicherheitshalber jeden einzelnen= schritt auf. Und f=C3=BCr alle Ich kann reinen Gewissens sagen das ich nie jemanden beleidigt habe. Zumindes= t war das nie meine Absicht. >For those people, there might be alternatives. So genug geredet, kommen wir zum ende, eingeleitet hast du es ja bereits ;-) = Ich gehe davon aus auch darauf gehofft;-)=20 Ist ja einfacher alles erst mal schlechte in einem Menschen zu sehen als die = eigene Denkblase zu verlassen was das gegen=C3=BCber vieleicht gemeint hat. V= ielleicht denkst du ja mal zuk=C3=BCnftig dr=C3=BCber nach ob alle Menschen n= ur meinen das andere Mist Produzieren oder ob etwas v=C3=B6llig anderes gemei= nt ist...Falls mal wieder so einer wie ich auftaucht. Und Nein ich werde kein= neues Konto er=C3=B6ffnen wie gef=C3=BChlt hunderte vor mir. Was im =C3=BCbr= igen auch keiner zu bemerken scheint ausser mir... Lasst euch ruhig weiter verarschen von der ganzen Trolls...Was f=C3=BCr eine = Zeitverschwendung... Ui, einen habe ich doch noch. Wollte es aufheben f=C3=BCr ein zuk=C3=BCnftige= s release. Erinnerst du dich noch als ich dich fragte das ich es prima finden= w=C3=BCrde wenn NTP intern umgeleitet wird? Erinnerst du dich noch an deine = Antwort? Hihi fand ich niedlich. Du sagtest in etwa sowas wie ich solle die g= anzen Firmen anschreiben. Weil die sich ja in China daf=C3=BCr interessieren = wenn ich gerne meinen NTP selbst einstellen m=C3=B6chte ;-) Nun arbeitet wer = noch mal? irgendwas mit fischer glaube ich schon seit geraumer Zeit daran. Ic= h konnte nix mehr negatives von dir dazu lesen. Es gibt unz=C3=A4hliger solch= er Beispiele, wo ich nie erkennen konnte was den eigentlich deine Meinung ist= . Sie =C3=A4nderte sich einfach =C3=B6fter als ich es gewohnt bin. Liegt sich= erlich auch an mir. Dieser Abschnitt nennt man Klartext. Kennt man heute nich= t mehr. Nur noch so alte S=C3=A4cke wie ich. Es hat definitiv keinen beleidig= enden Character. Nur f=C3=BCr den Notfall falls das wieder nicht verstanden w= ird. Es ist eine reine Beobachtung meinerseits von vielen die ich nie verstan= den habe. Ich vermisse nichts, ich bereue nichts und vielleicht werde ich weiterhin wie= der spenden. Nur f=C3=BCrs Produkt. Ich gehe davon aus zumindest das war vers= t=C3=A4ndlich. Ich fordere dich hiermit auf mein Konto vollst=C3=A4ndig zu l=C3=B6schen! (pe= ople, discourse =E2=80=A6) alles was da dran h=C3=A4ngt. Und unter vollst=C3= =A4ndig meine ich vollst=C3=A4ndig! Nicht nur suspendieren. Danke f=C3=BCrs Produkt an alle. Besonderen Dank an Peter und Bebima (ohne ihn w=C3=A4re das ganze Punktesyste= m nix ;-) ) 28. Mai 2021 17:24, "Michael Tremer" schrieb: > Hello, >=20 >> On 28 May 2021, at 13:56, tulpenknicker(a)disroot.org wrote: >>=20 >> Thank you for taking the time to reply >>=20 >>> Without having looked at >>=20 >> Excuse, the whole story is at a stage i dont wanna read such thing. You ca= n have what ever opinion >> you like;-) But without reading first whats going on its senseless to talk= about. >=20 > If you would have read on, you would have realised that I did read your con= versation and the page. >=20 >>> Just blaming people for writing =E2=80=9Cnonsense=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> Iam not aware that i said such. >=20 > What else is your point then? You are just discrediting other people=E2=80= =99s work without offering an > alternative. >=20 >>> everything that has to be done in simple steps >>=20 >> I see one day its to much and you delete( i do not talk about the old ones= ) wiki entrys next day >> its meaningfull ;-) >>=20 >>> I do not see why this is urgent. >>=20 >> From my POV thats one of the most problems(given informations related) you= fight with. No one cares >> if there are tons of horrible wrong or dangerous suggestion in the forum. = If we talk about the >> wiki, and its not urgent for you that all whats written there should be in= the best way true and >> meaningfull --> Houston we have a problem... >=20 > I, for myself, decide what is urgent to me. This is absolutely not urgent a= t all. I have a job and > a thousand other things to do. Instead I am wasting my time here having a c= onversation that is > going nowhere=E2=80=A6 >=20 > You can contribute anything that would improve the documentation, but telli= ng me that some things > are =E2=80=9Cnot good enough=E2=80=9D. That is just winging and not being w= illing to change anything yourself. >=20 >>> help me to understand your point >>=20 >> My point is, if someone said again and again iam no expert, and someone at= least mean to know that >> is wrong what he think, and then also a tons have watch this and proofed b= efore, then its for me >> lately here the perfect time, have to think if iam wrong or not. But i don= t saw this that he react >> in such way. All what i "read" is for me. I dont read, i do this for all. = I "read" because its good >> for me and correct, it must be good and correct for all others. >=20 > I don=E2=80=99t understand what you are trying to say. >=20 >>> But there must have been a need for it that it was created >>=20 >> If it already there you must not repeat it. You only train the people, we = are so glad that you was >> able to find the way to the wiki. Now we think you can not find the inform= ations you need. >> Therefore we decide we repeat it here and there, just to make sure you can= find it. Please let us >> know if we also need to mark which button you must press. >>=20 >>> recommend to have any conversation in public >>=20 >> But you have not the right to open a private conversation to the masses, w= ithout permission. I want >> remember we live here in Germany and dont behave like the cowboys do. For = me it makes no diffrence >> if i talk about flowers or whatever. If i decide to to this in a private m= anner, then have it to >> stay private. Here is for me no room for wishes, meanings, opinions to beh= ave diffrent. >=20 > This is an *Open* Source project. Open means open. We do everything in the = open. There might be a > reason to do things in private, but this isn=E2=80=99t it. >=20 > You shouldn=E2=80=99t have said these things to someone in private, just be= cause that privacy makes you > feel safe. It=E2=80=99s abusive and we are getting enough of these things t= hat my tolerance level is very > very small about it. >=20 > I take your =E2=80=9Ccowboys=E2=80=9D comment as an abusive slide. >=20 >> For me here(my first post in the list here) starts the conversation from n= ew. >>=20 >> You "have"/can only a few things (to) do. >=20 > LOL. No. >=20 >> Answer for yourself if you now love too much information (picture book) ag= ain, or is it how you >> think in the past. >=20 > I think I have answered that in my last email. >=20 >> Is DMZ Pinhole true or wrong (False information is worse than none, or is = blue green pinhole now >> after a decade? Just to be sure, i still only interested whats true. I don= t care if something >> changes. >> If "enough" have read this frustrating PRIVATE conversation(discourse) bet= ween me and Jon, close it >> as i already told you. >> And the most important part, you must from my POV decide for which person = you create this hot cool >> IPFire. Have you done for the people who have understand that you need a "= little" bit time to >> understand how the things work. Or do you just dont care, and you only wis= h the people to help to >> setting up IPFire but still have no idea what's going on. >=20 > I think we all know very well at whom IPFire is aimed at. Not everyone will= agree with everything > we are doing here and I am not looking for that. For those people, there mi= ght be alternatives. >=20 > I am very happy with the documentation that Jon has been maintaining and I = think there is no basis > for your criticism. >=20 > -Michael >=20 >> regards >>=20 >> 28. Mai 2021 11:33, "Michael Tremer" schrieb: >>=20 >>> Good Morning, >>>=20 >>> Great to see some activity on this list again. >>=20 >> On 27 May 2021, at 11:45, tulpenknicker(a)disroot.org wrote: >>=20 >> I have the urgent need to address the following things that are currently = bothering me. The current >> development of the wiki does not give me much pleasure. I have already bee= n in contact with the >> author about this. I'm especially concerned about what I see as an extreme= ly wrong balance between >> having enough pictures and information to understand, but not being recogn= ized as a picture book or >> "idiot guide" on the other hand. >> Furthermore there is a discrepancy of understanding. Either I am totally w= rong or the author is. >> Whereby I would like the latter more ;-) >>> Well, first of all I will have to calm you down. Without having looked at= what you are actually >>> referring to, I am sure the author meant well and had a reason why they w= anted to add a page on a >>> certain topic. That might not be necessary for you, because you know all = the things on that page, >>> but others might not. >>>=20 >>> Just blaming people for writing =E2=80=9Cnonsense=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t = how we should treat each other here. >>=20 >> It is about the definition DMZ Pinhole. My understanding is that this is u= sed regardless of whether >> orange is involved or not, i.e. if you want to get from one isolated, sepa= rate network to the next, >> that's a DMZ pinhole for me. For the author it is a blue green pinhole. >>=20 >> Therefore he created/changed the pages >>=20 >> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/firewall/default-policy >>=20 >> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/firewall/accesstoblue >>=20 >> And created a "picture book". The only thing that is "missing" is the mark= ing of which key to >> press... >>=20 >> https://wiki.ipfire.org/configuration/firewall/rules/bg-holes >>> Technically, I think this is a very good page. It explains everything tha= t has to be done in simple >>> steps and you can check every time if you did exactly what was recommende= d. For beginners, or even >>> people who are not very familiar with IPFire, this is very helpful inform= ation. I do not see any >>> problems here. >>>=20 >>> Whether the page is necessary because the average admin should know how t= o create a firewall rule >>> is a different question. >>=20 >> Urgent clarification is requested on my part. >>> I do not see why this is urgent. It might be important, but probably not = urgent. >>=20 >> As it looks to me the author only promotes a new generation of copy and pa= ste professionals. It >> seems to me that he has only considered that he wants to help everyone. Wh= at this can cause is not >> considered. The style how the whole was formulated rounds it then down. It= reminds me somehow a >> small child to motivate and to hold out to the end. We're almost there...j= ust this...hang in >> there.... >> I may be too dogged about the latter. Probably I'm just too old ;-) >>> Well, this is a wiki. It is supposed to be like this. It is not for peopl= e who already know this. >>> They, by definition, won=E2=80=99t need it. >>=20 >> What annoys me most about the whole story is the fact that this informatio= ns are many years written >> and has already been changed several times. So already many have looked ov= er the Doku. Regardless >> of whether one is now right with something or not, if someone brings forwa= rd an objection then at >> least for me the absolute logical consequence is that this must be discuss= ed! Until its resolved! >> If necessary you ask someone else to join the party to provide who has the= re now right. To change >> it anyway with the words ~ "I have not understood that way, that has nothi= ng to do with it for me" >> does not make it automatically right for all others. This train of thought= is totally alien to me >> and also completely unacceptable! >>> Okay, but then please help me to understand your point: You do not like t= he page. Okay. >>>=20 >>> But there must have been a need for it that it was created in the first p= lace. Maybe someone asked >>> a question somewhere and it was realised that this information was missin= g or simply not clear >>> enough where people were expecting to find it. Adding this page solves a = problem. >>>=20 >>> What would be your proposal for a solution? >>=20 >> It is important to me that the whole thing is not understood as pure criti= cism. My only interest is >> whether the wiki is correct and meaningful or false and unnecessary. >>> I understand most of your point. I think you come across as a little bit = angry in this email, and I >>> cannot respond to that. If you want to be angry, be angry. :) >>>=20 >>> I share the goal that the wiki provides all information someone (whatever= their skill level) will >>> need to run IPFire. >>>=20 >>> I am sure Jon does too, and I appreciate all his work his is putting in. >>=20 >> The only reason why I post it here publicly is because there was no progre= ss in the conversation >> between 4 eyes. And someone from the IPF Team i asked before this step, ga= ve me the advice to ask >> here. >>> Well, I can only recommend to have any conversation in public. There is t= his list, and there is an >>> extra section on community.ipfire.org (they are probably very redundant). >>>=20 >>> Best, >>> -Michael >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Documentation mailing list >> Documentation(a)lists.ipfire.org >> https://lists.ipfire.org/mailman/listinfo/documentation --===============7629392639137245803==--