Hi all
I would like to start releasing packages for Zabbix Agent 7.0 (new LTS) as it offers some added value when used with Zabbix server 7.0 (heartbeat, item-level custom timeouts, ...). However, the agent is not backwards compatible. Hence, if I would update the zabbix_agentd package to contain v7.0, people still running Zabbix 6.0 LTS (still supported until feb. 2027) or even 6.2 or 6.4 would then no longer be able to monitor IPFire.
So it would be nice if we could provide both zabbix_agentd 6.0 and 7.0 packages so users can choose depending on their Zabbix server version. I think offering different versions of the same software is not yet done before?
How should I do this? Just add a new package zabbix_agentd7 next to the current zabbix_agentd package? But if so: - Can we then rename the zabbix_agentd pak to zabbix_agentd6 (I don't immediately see how that should be handeled during upgrade?). If not possible or feasable, that's not that big of a deal as in time (feb 2027) that package can be removed and that "problem" then has solved itself. So this is maybe just some unneeded hassle. - Can we prevent users from installing both packages as they will conflict? (both file-wise and used port-wise) - And what should I do with the IPFire specific customizations as they will be identical for both packages.: - Just duplicate them to both packages, (probably the easiest) - or move them to yet another package "zabbix_agentd_ipfire_extension".. And then let both agent packages depend on that one. But that may be confusing to the user as that package would require one of the then 2 zabbix_agentd packages to be of any use, but we can't do a zabbix_agentd OR zabbix_agentd7 dependency, I think?
...
Or should we just refrain from adding v7.0 for now.. and then probably until 2027 or until ipfire3, (if pakfire there supports such packages conflict/dependency mechanisms?).. but by then there probably is already an 8.0 and possibly a 9.0..
So...
I would like your thoughts about this ?
Robin
Hello Robin,
This is an interesting question to which I don’t have a very good answer.
On 26 Oct 2024, at 23:08, Robin Roevens robin.roevens@disroot.org wrote:
Hi all
I would like to start releasing packages for Zabbix Agent 7.0 (new LTS) as it offers some added value when used with Zabbix server 7.0 (heartbeat, item-level custom timeouts, ...). However, the agent is not backwards compatible. Hence, if I would update the zabbix_agentd package to contain v7.0, people still running Zabbix 6.0 LTS (still supported until feb. 2027) or even 6.2 or 6.4 would then no longer be able to monitor IPFire.
I consider this quite bad software design since it is causing some issues with their user base and creates a lot more work for distributions to package two of the same software. We also ready have a lot of different monitoring tools and occasionally people request more, so I assume that each of them have already only a small user base as they divide the market - and now having two versions of Zabbix is even further splitting the Zabbix user base so that I am sure that for each version we will only have very few users, but still a lot of work to package it.
This is just for the record. It would be nicer if upstream would give us better migration paths.
So it would be nice if we could provide both zabbix_agentd 6.0 and 7.0 packages so users can choose depending on their Zabbix server version. I think offering different versions of the same software is not yet done before?
Luckily this was not necessary, or in case of Icinga/Nagios there was a fork that renamed the package so that there were no file conflicts.
Pakfire in IPFire 2 was never supposed to be a full-blown package management system and therefore it does not support conflicts like Pakfire in IPFire 3 does. There, we would simply configure that those packages cannot be installed at the same time and the package management system will take care of it.
How should I do this? Just add a new package zabbix_agentd7 next to the current zabbix_agentd package?
There is a way… but before, maybe it is worth to conduct a little survey on community.ipfire.org http://community.ipfire.org/ to see if there are actually any users who have a preference either way? I don’t know much about Zabbix so I am not sure how fast people are with upgrading (I assume a single device in your infrastructure that does not support version 7 will block you from moving everything forward?).
But if so:
- Can we then rename the zabbix_agentd pak to zabbix_agentd6 (I don't
immediately see how that should be handeled during upgrade?). If not possible or feasable, that's not that big of a deal as in time (feb 2027) that package can be removed and that "problem" then has solved itself. So this is maybe just some unneeded hassle.
We could rename it, that might make the whole thing a little bit cleaner.
Either you can add the major release number or simply call it zabbix-agent-legacy? Whatever you fell is most appropriate.
This change would have to be done in the core update though.
- Can we prevent users from installing both packages as they will
conflict? (both file-wise and used port-wise)
Hmm, that will be a problem. Pakfire does not support conflicts. We can either add this (because to simply conflict with a name this might not be too hard to do), or another version would be to actually build everything in such a way that there are no real conflicts. Rename /usr/sbin/zabbix_agentd to /usr/sbin/zabbix_agentd-7 and so on.
There are install scripts that we have used before to stop the installation process, but those are being called *after* the files have been extracted so the formerly installed version will already have been overwritten.
- And what should I do with the IPFire specific customizations as they
will be identical for both packages.:
- Just duplicate them to both packages, (probably the easiest)
- or move them to yet another package
Good question. It might be easiest to just copy things. Because then we can just drop the older version whenever time is right and don’t have to merge packages together again. I hope this break is a one-off and version 8 won’t do this again.
"zabbix_agentd_ipfire_extension".. And then let both agent packages depend on that one. But that may be confusing to the user as that package would require one of the then 2 zabbix_agentd packages to be of any use, but we can't do a zabbix_agentd OR zabbix_agentd7 dependency, I think?
I would not be against it if you prefer this option. Technically it will work.
...
Or should we just refrain from adding v7.0 for now.. and then probably until 2027 or until ipfire3, (if pakfire there supports such packages conflict/dependency mechanisms?).. but by then there probably is already an 8.0 and possibly a 9.0..
Good question, maybe this is worth to investigate with the community if there is demand for version 7 already. I don’t know how fast people will upgrade. Having said my thoughts from earlier, IPFire should not be the blocker why people cannot upgrade their entire infrastructure to version 7.
Is there any reason that justifies this big break?
-Michael
So...
I would like your thoughts about this ?
Robin
Hi Michael
Michael Tremer schreef op wo 30-10-2024 om 09:54 [+0000]:
Hello Robin,
This is an interesting question to which I don’t have a very good answer.
On 26 Oct 2024, at 23:08, Robin Roevens robin.roevens@disroot.org wrote:
Hi all
I would like to start releasing packages for Zabbix Agent 7.0 (new LTS) as it offers some added value when used with Zabbix server 7.0 (heartbeat, item-level custom timeouts, ...). However, the agent is not backwards compatible. Hence, if I would update the zabbix_agentd package to contain v7.0, people still running Zabbix 6.0 LTS (still supported until feb. 2027) or even 6.2 or 6.4 would then no longer be able to monitor IPFire.
I consider this quite bad software design since it is causing some issues with their user base and creates a lot more work for distributions to package two of the same software. We also ready have a lot of different monitoring tools and occasionally people request more, so I assume that each of them have already only a small user base as they divide the market - and now having two versions of Zabbix is even further splitting the Zabbix user base so that I am sure that for each version we will only have very few users, but still a lot of work to package it.
This is just for the record. It would be nicer if upstream would give us better migration paths.
I understand the standpoint from distro-side but Zabbix on the other hand is a commercial entity that needs to make a living out of the product, but (luckily) is and wants to remain a true open-source company. So their sole income comes from selling support (and services) on the product; so from their standpoint it is beneficial to keep supporting a few versions from the past. They release a LTS version every 1.5 years and support that version for 5 years, so in theory currently also v5.0 is still supported and there will always be 3 LTS versions that are supported at the same time. (https://www.zabbix.com/life_cycle_and_release_policy)
To make things even more complicated, there is also a zabbix_agent2, which is also a Zabbix Agent with the same capabilities but written in Go instead of in C. They live next to each other (and Zabbix claims this will remain as such) with the Go version having a bit more features due to the availability of additional Go extensions for it. I already decided in past not to make packages of agent2 for IPFire for now, as it has a larger footprint both in size and in resources when running. And in my opinion, it provides too little of added value for IPFire. Despite the fact that I have already received the question in the past (https://github.com/RobinR1/zbx-template-ipfire/issues/3)
I have meanwhile checked a few other distro's and it seems they currently ship only 6.0.x (LTS) versions of the agent and agent2 by default. But Zabbix provides it's own repositories for all major distro's with all supported versions. Additionally there are a few other community builds of different Zabbix versions for different distro's out there.. So in the end the user has many choices.
For IPFire there are no additional package sources nor Zabbix repo's to obtain different versions from. So if we want our users to have a choice, we need to provide it ourselves.
So it would be nice if we could provide both zabbix_agentd 6.0 and 7.0 packages so users can choose depending on their Zabbix server version. I think offering different versions of the same software is not yet done before?
Luckily this was not necessary, or in case of Icinga/Nagios there was a fork that renamed the package so that there were no file conflicts.
Pakfire in IPFire 2 was never supposed to be a full-blown package management system and therefore it does not support conflicts like Pakfire in IPFire 3 does. There, we would simply configure that those packages cannot be installed at the same time and the package management system will take care of it.
How should I do this? Just add a new package zabbix_agentd7 next to the current zabbix_agentd package?
There is a way… but before, maybe it is worth to conduct a little survey on community.ipfire.org http://community.ipfire.org/ to see if there are actually any users who have a preference either way? I don’t know much about Zabbix so I am not sure how fast people are with upgrading (I assume a single device in your infrastructure that does not support version 7 will block you from moving everything forward?).
Luckily that is not the fact. The server keeps supporting older agents. Currently Server 7.0 still supports agents v1.4 up to 7.0. Downside of- course is that older agents will miss newer features and one of those newer features currently is rather visible: Agent 7 sends heartbeats to the server which gives a green availability icon for that agent on the Server 7 interface. The agent we currently ship doesn't do that yet and shows up with an 'unknown' status on a Server 7, for which I also already had a user question: https://community.ipfire.org/t/zabbix-template-for-ipfire/3522/8?u=robinr1
The main reason however I myself am so eager to have an Agent 7 package is that agent 7 supports different timeout settings for each monitored metric instead of only a global timeout setting. As I'm running IPFire on a Lightning Wire Mini appliance, I bump on timeouts for some checks that on a full blown pc won't have problems, but I wouldn't want to increase the global timeout.
Not providing a package for agent 7 on IPFire would not keep anyone from upgrading it's monitoring infrastructure. The other way around however, if we would only supply a v7 of the agent, people with an older Zabbix server will no longer be able to monitor their IPFire instance. So we have to be careful stopping support of older versions of the agent.
I do assume home users probably upgrade fairly quick, but enterprises tend to be slower in their upgrade paths. The institution I work for is currently still on 6.4 and I know of (big) companies even still running 4.0. But I assume that kind of companies are probably not IPFire users (and v4 would already be done for anyways..). And as we never had complaint about v5 not being available for IPFire, I think we can currently assume all our users that also use Zabbix are at least on v6.
But if so:
- Can we then rename the zabbix_agentd pak to zabbix_agentd6 (I
don't immediately see how that should be handeled during upgrade?). If not possible or feasable, that's not that big of a deal as in time (feb 2027) that package can be removed and that "problem" then has solved itself. So this is maybe just some unneeded hassle.
We could rename it, that might make the whole thing a little bit cleaner.
Either you can add the major release number or simply call it zabbix- agent-legacy? Whatever you fell is most appropriate.
I would go with a major version number then, as 'legacy' is within the Zabbix community sometimes also used to refer to the C version of the Zabbix agent opposed to the Go Zabbix agent2 version (which we don't provide).
This change would have to be done in the core update though.
- Can we prevent users from installing both packages as they will
conflict? (both file-wise and used port-wise)
Hmm, that will be a problem. Pakfire does not support conflicts. We can either add this (because to simply conflict with a name this might not be too hard to do), or another version would be to actually build everything in such a way that there are no real conflicts. Rename /usr/sbin/zabbix_agentd to /usr/sbin/zabbix_agentd-7 and so on.
Building the package so that there is no real conflict is doable, but as the package would automatically (re)start the agent, it would still try to map the same tcp port. We could also start using a different port by default for each package but then we are deviating from a well known default that can only lead to confusion.
There are install scripts that we have used before to stop the installation process, but those are being called *after* the files have been extracted so the formerly installed version will already have been overwritten.
That would indeed not really help. I was thinking about detecting if the other version is installed, if so, removing the old version in favor of the latest installed version. But also here, an uninstall of the old version would then probably occur *after* the install of the new version, removing files from the new version.
- And what should I do with the IPFire specific customizations as
they will be identical for both packages.: - Just duplicate them to both packages, (probably the easiest) - or move them to yet another package
Good question. It might be easiest to just copy things. Because then we can just drop the older version whenever time is right and don’t have to merge packages together again. I hope this break is a one-off and version 8 won’t do this again.
As I said earlier, there will probably always be 3 LTS versions that are supported at the same time. Currently we already don't provide a v5.0 package which is technically also still supported. But we didn't have complaints :-) But in theory this break could be permanent thing.
"zabbix_agentd_ipfire_extension".. And then let both agent packages depend on that one. But that may be confusing to the user as that package would require one of the then 2 zabbix_agentd packages to be of any use, but we can't do a zabbix_agentd OR zabbix_agentd7 dependency, I think?
I would not be against it if you prefer this option. Technically it will work.
...
Or should we just refrain from adding v7.0 for now.. and then probably until 2027 or until ipfire3, (if pakfire there supports such packages conflict/dependency mechanisms?).. but by then there probably is already an 8.0 and possibly a 9.0..
Good question, maybe this is worth to investigate with the community if there is demand for version 7 already. I don’t know how fast people will upgrade. Having said my thoughts from earlier, IPFire should not be the blocker why people cannot upgrade their entire infrastructure to version 7.
Is there any reason that justifies this big break?
As outlined above, my main reason currently is the item-level configurable timeouts in v7 that can improve monitoring on embedded devices with slower resources, but I will launch a community survey to check if there is a broader need for a version 7 already. I don't think Fireinfo currently has information about how many addon installs there are in our userbase ?
Anyway, lets wait for community feedback, and then we can start thinking about the practical side again.
Robin
-Michael
So...
I would like your thoughts about this ?
Robin
Hello,
On 2 Nov 2024, at 14:30, Robin Roevens robin.roevens@disroot.org wrote:
Hi Michael
Michael Tremer schreef op wo 30-10-2024 om 09:54 [+0000]:
Hello Robin,
This is an interesting question to which I don’t have a very good answer.
On 26 Oct 2024, at 23:08, Robin Roevens robin.roevens@disroot.org wrote:
Hi all
I would like to start releasing packages for Zabbix Agent 7.0 (new LTS) as it offers some added value when used with Zabbix server 7.0 (heartbeat, item-level custom timeouts, ...). However, the agent is not backwards compatible. Hence, if I would update the zabbix_agentd package to contain v7.0, people still running Zabbix 6.0 LTS (still supported until feb. 2027) or even 6.2 or 6.4 would then no longer be able to monitor IPFire.
I consider this quite bad software design since it is causing some issues with their user base and creates a lot more work for distributions to package two of the same software. We also ready have a lot of different monitoring tools and occasionally people request more, so I assume that each of them have already only a small user base as they divide the market - and now having two versions of Zabbix is even further splitting the Zabbix user base so that I am sure that for each version we will only have very few users, but still a lot of work to package it.
This is just for the record. It would be nicer if upstream would give us better migration paths.
I understand the standpoint from distro-side but Zabbix on the other hand is a commercial entity that needs to make a living out of the product, but (luckily) is and wants to remain a true open-source company. So their sole income comes from selling support (and services) on the product; so from their standpoint it is beneficial to keep supporting a few versions from the past.
Oh yeah that is absolutely true and we are doing exactly the same here, too.
They release a LTS version every 1.5 years and support that version for 5 years, so in theory currently also v5.0 is still supported and there will always be 3 LTS versions that are supported at the same time. (https://www.zabbix.com/life_cycle_and_release_policy)
I don’t know if this is reasonable or not because I am not a big Zabbix user, but why not?
To make things even more complicated, there is also a zabbix_agent2, which is also a Zabbix Agent with the same capabilities but written in Go instead of in C. They live next to each other (and Zabbix claims this will remain as such) with the Go version having a bit more features due to the availability of additional Go extensions for it. I already decided in past not to make packages of agent2 for IPFire for now, as it has a larger footprint both in size and in resources when running. And in my opinion, it provides too little of added value for IPFire. Despite the fact that I have already received the question in the past (https://github.com/RobinR1/zbx-template-ipfire/issues/3)
Interesting. I personally don’t believe that Go is making it very far for low-level services in operating systems. I think we ship one piece of Go software and that requires us to ship the entire compiler which cannot easily be bootstrapped. So I am also happier with the C version.
I have meanwhile checked a few other distro's and it seems they currently ship only 6.0.x (LTS) versions of the agent and agent2 by default. But Zabbix provides it's own repositories for all major distro's with all supported versions. Additionally there are a few other community builds of different Zabbix versions for different distro's out there.. So in the end the user has many choices.
For IPFire there are no additional package sources nor Zabbix repo's to obtain different versions from. So if we want our users to have a choice, we need to provide it ourselves.
Indeed.
So it would be nice if we could provide both zabbix_agentd 6.0 and 7.0 packages so users can choose depending on their Zabbix server version. I think offering different versions of the same software is not yet done before?
Luckily this was not necessary, or in case of Icinga/Nagios there was a fork that renamed the package so that there were no file conflicts.
Pakfire in IPFire 2 was never supposed to be a full-blown package management system and therefore it does not support conflicts like Pakfire in IPFire 3 does. There, we would simply configure that those packages cannot be installed at the same time and the package management system will take care of it.
How should I do this? Just add a new package zabbix_agentd7 next to the current zabbix_agentd package?
There is a way… but before, maybe it is worth to conduct a little survey on community.ipfire.org http://community.ipfire.org/ to see if there are actually any users who have a preference either way? I don’t know much about Zabbix so I am not sure how fast people are with upgrading (I assume a single device in your infrastructure that does not support version 7 will block you from moving everything forward?).
Luckily that is not the fact. The server keeps supporting older agents. Currently Server 7.0 still supports agents v1.4 up to 7.0. Downside of- course is that older agents will miss newer features and one of those newer features currently is rather visible: Agent 7 sends heartbeats to the server which gives a green availability icon for that agent on the Server 7 interface. The agent we currently ship doesn't do that yet and shows up with an 'unknown' status on a Server 7, for which I also already had a user question: https://community.ipfire.org/t/zabbix-template-for-ipfire/3522/8?u=robinr1
The main reason however I myself am so eager to have an Agent 7 package is that agent 7 supports different timeout settings for each monitored metric instead of only a global timeout setting. As I'm running IPFire on a Lightning Wire Mini appliance, I bump on timeouts for some checks that on a full blown pc won't have problems, but I wouldn't want to increase the global timeout.
Not providing a package for agent 7 on IPFire would not keep anyone from upgrading it's monitoring infrastructure. The other way around however, if we would only supply a v7 of the agent, people with an older Zabbix server will no longer be able to monitor their IPFire instance. So we have to be careful stopping support of older versions of the agent.
I do assume home users probably upgrade fairly quick, but enterprises tend to be slower in their upgrade paths. The institution I work for is currently still on 6.4 and I know of (big) companies even still running 4.0. But I assume that kind of companies are probably not IPFire users (and v4 would already be done for anyways..). And as we never had complaint about v5 not being available for IPFire, I think we can currently assume all our users that also use Zabbix are at least on v6.
Okay, then let’s ship both.
But if so:
- Can we then rename the zabbix_agentd pak to zabbix_agentd6 (I
don't immediately see how that should be handeled during upgrade?). If not possible or feasable, that's not that big of a deal as in time (feb 2027) that package can be removed and that "problem" then has solved itself. So this is maybe just some unneeded hassle.
We could rename it, that might make the whole thing a little bit cleaner.
Either you can add the major release number or simply call it zabbix- agent-legacy? Whatever you fell is most appropriate.
I would go with a major version number then, as 'legacy' is within the Zabbix community sometimes also used to refer to the C version of the Zabbix agent opposed to the Go Zabbix agent2 version (which we don't provide).
Okay. I didn’t know that.
This change would have to be done in the core update though.
- Can we prevent users from installing both packages as they will
conflict? (both file-wise and used port-wise)
Hmm, that will be a problem. Pakfire does not support conflicts. We can either add this (because to simply conflict with a name this might not be too hard to do), or another version would be to actually build everything in such a way that there are no real conflicts. Rename /usr/sbin/zabbix_agentd to /usr/sbin/zabbix_agentd-7 and so on.
Building the package so that there is no real conflict is doable, but as the package would automatically (re)start the agent, it would still try to map the same tcp port. We could also start using a different port by default for each package but then we are deviating from a well known default that can only lead to confusion.
I would keep the default port. If people try to run both at the same time they are on their own.
There are install scripts that we have used before to stop the installation process, but those are being called *after* the files have been extracted so the formerly installed version will already have been overwritten.
That would indeed not really help. I was thinking about detecting if the other version is installed, if so, removing the old version in favor of the latest installed version. But also here, an uninstall of the old version would then probably occur *after* the install of the new version, removing files from the new version.
- And what should I do with the IPFire specific customizations as
they will be identical for both packages.:
- Just duplicate them to both packages, (probably the easiest)
- or move them to yet another package
Good question. It might be easiest to just copy things. Because then we can just drop the older version whenever time is right and don’t have to merge packages together again. I hope this break is a one-off and version 8 won’t do this again.
As I said earlier, there will probably always be 3 LTS versions that are supported at the same time. Currently we already don't provide a v5.0 package which is technically also still supported. But we didn't have complaints :-) But in theory this break could be permanent thing.
Okay.
"zabbix_agentd_ipfire_extension".. And then let both agent packages depend on that one. But that may be confusing to the user as that package would require one of the then 2 zabbix_agentd packages to be of any use, but we can't do a zabbix_agentd OR zabbix_agentd7 dependency, I think?
I would not be against it if you prefer this option. Technically it will work.
...
Or should we just refrain from adding v7.0 for now.. and then probably until 2027 or until ipfire3, (if pakfire there supports such packages conflict/dependency mechanisms?).. but by then there probably is already an 8.0 and possibly a 9.0..
Good question, maybe this is worth to investigate with the community if there is demand for version 7 already. I don’t know how fast people will upgrade. Having said my thoughts from earlier, IPFire should not be the blocker why people cannot upgrade their entire infrastructure to version 7.
Is there any reason that justifies this big break?
As outlined above, my main reason currently is the item-level configurable timeouts in v7 that can improve monitoring on embedded devices with slower resources, but I will launch a community survey to check if there is a broader need for a version 7 already. I don't think Fireinfo currently has information about how many addon installs there are in our userbase ?
No. We don’t track that and I am not sure what we would gain from having exact numbers. We already kind of know what the most popular add-ons are.
Anyway, lets wait for community feedback, and then we can start thinking about the practical side again.
Okay, I will wait for you to take the lead on this :)
-Michael
Robin
-Michael
So...
I would like your thoughts about this ?
Robin
-
Michael Tremer -
Robin Roevens